Tell me about Survive! S7 steel, how does it compare to others?

[wolverine_173]

I have been looking at the Survive! SK4 made of S7 steel but am having a hard time deciding if it is work the money. How does S7 compare to 1095, A2 and 3V? Thanks

 

[Neo]

some charts

S5 also seems interesting

http://www.simplytoolsteel.com/choosing-the-correct-tool-steel.html

 

[chiral.grolim]

Just posted in the S!K thread, but will repeat here:

Quick question abou the sk4 and S7 steel, how does the steel compare to 1095, A2 and the 3V? I know its super tough but how about edge retention?

http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=1095,3V,A2,S7&ni=360,5217,11,571

CPM-3V has approximately the same carbide volume as A2 steel but is ~2X more wear resistant as well as ~2X tougher @ 60 Rc (all that vanadium and PM technology )

S7 has about 1/2 the carbide volume of those 2, is 50% tougher than CPM-3V @ 57-58Rc, but will be less resistant to abrasive than even A2, especially @57Rc. That said, you probably wouldn't be able to tell A2 from S7 at the same hardness if comparing both to 3V in terms of wear-resistance, both are just too low, not designed for abrasive wear. 1095, with virtually no alloying elements, will be even LESS wear-resistant unless taken to MUCH higher hardness (65 Rc) whereupon it is quite brittle. But most production 1095, e.g. ESEE knives from Rowen, leave 1095 much softer (55-57Rc http://www.eseeknives.com/esee-4.htm) which results in ~50-60 J of impact toughness, comparable to A2 steel at 60Rc but with FAR less wear-resistance.

In summary, S7 is tougher than all but only more wear-resistant than 1095. However, the SK-4 is higher hardness than, for example, the ESEE-4 and should exhibit not only higher toughness but also higher strength and wear-resistance.

EDIT to add:

Make a video like this with an ESEE-4, and the owners and fans will declare you an "idiot", asserting that ANY knife not specifically designed and hardened for throwing (remember, their knives are ~56Rc) will break in half. Makes you confident in their product, doesn't it?

[video=youtube;hj_1lrnQIkA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_1lrnQIkA[/video]

[video=youtube;QyBhMK5zlxU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyBhMK5zlxU[/video]

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

S7 is as tough as it gets and with the right HT can be a solid blade steel for choppers and hard use tools.

The main issue with the steel is it only quenches to 58-59. It just isnt hard enough to support a thin (.010-.015) edge after tempering back to 56-57. If the edge is left fairly thick (>~.025) it can be a fine knife steel.

However for a smashing and chopping tool with some meat behind the edge it can be a great performer. Im looking into using it for some bush swords

To summarize, a very poor choice for a thin slicing knife and a solid choice for a hard use blade with a fairly thick edge.

 

[bld522]

Yep. S7 was a staple of Scrap Yard knives when Dan Busse started up the company. He (or perhaps more accurately, Jerry) made some stupid tough camp knives and choppers out of it. In fact, Mike Stewart congratulated Jerry for wringing about as much as could be had out of that alloy. (FYI, S7 is the alloy used in jackhammer bits, so you know it's tough!)

If I were the OP, I'd keep an eye out on the Busse FS subforum for used Dog Fathers, SODs, Yardkeepers, and the like.

 

[wolverine_173]

S7 is as tough as it gets and with the right HT can be a solid blade steel for choppers and hard use tools.

The main issue with the steel is it only quenches to 58-59. It just isnt hard enough to support a thin (.010-.015) edge after tempering back to 56-57. If the edge is left fairly thick (>~.025) it can be a fine knife steel.

However for a smashing and chopping tool with some meat behind the edge it can be a great performer. Im looking into using it for some bush swords

To summarize, a very poor choice for a thin slicing knife and a solid choice for a hard use blade with a fairly thick edge.

Well the sk4 is just over 4in. For the money I could be the sk4 or a bark river in a2, like a gunny. I like the looks of the sk4 better. So if s7 and a2 are similar I'll go with the sk4. If a2 is noticeably better I'll go bark river

 

[B34NS]

Agree with chiral on this. s7 is structurally a better performer than 1095 and I'm still surprised people buy 1095 knives. I've been working with 3V quite a bit lately, I don't think it's the end all be all ultimate knife steel, but hell of a lot better than 01, A2, D2 if you gotta pick for a production style knife. S7 probably quicker to sharpen too, and less expensive than 3V. Personally at this point I feel paying the market rate for 1095, A2, D2, 01 is a waste of money when theres so many other amazing materials to work with.

 

[wolverine_173]

Just posted in the S!K thread, but will repeat here:



http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=1095,3V,A2,S7&ni=360,5217,11,571

CPM-3V has approximately the same carbide volume as A2 steel but is ~2X more wear resistant as well as ~2X tougher @ 60 Rc (all that vanadium and PM technology )

S7 has about 1/2 the carbide volume of those 2, is 50% tougher than CPM-3V @ 57-58Rc, but will be less resistant to abrasive than even A2, especially @57Rc. That said, you probably wouldn't be able to tell A2 from S7 at the same hardness if comparing both to 3V in terms of wear-resistance, both are just too low, not designed for abrasive wear. 1095, with virtually no alloying elements, will be even LESS wear-resistant unless taken to MUCH higher hardness (65 Rc) whereupon it is quite brittle. But most production 1095, e.g. ESEE knives from Rowen, leave 1095 much softer (55-57Rc http://www.eseeknives.com/esee-4.htm) which results in ~50-60 J of impact toughness, comparable to A2 steel at 60Rc but with FAR less wear-resistance.

In summary, S7 is tougher than all but only more wear-resistant than 1095. However, the SK-4 is higher hardness than, for example, the ESEE-4 and should exhibit not only higher toughness but also higher strength and wear-resistance.

EDIT to add:

Make a video like this with an ESEE-4, and the owners and fans will declare you an "idiot", asserting that ANY knife not specifically designed and hardened for throwing (remember, their knives are ~56Rc) will break in half. Makes you confident in their product, doesn't it?

[video=youtube;hj_1lrnQIkA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_1lrnQIkA[/video]

[video=youtube;QyBhMK5zlxU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyBhMK5zlxU[/video]

You say if hardened to the same level s7 and a2 will be about the same. What is the sk4 and bark river a2 hardened too ?

 

[Vegas Blade]

I can tell you 100% that Survive 3V is without ANY doubt the toughest steel I have ever used. I have literally BEAT on my GSO10. In a conversation with Guy, he said the S7 is tougher. I know that toughness comes at the expense of edge retention, but for it's intended use, I wouldn't care. I think S7 is used in jack hammer bits. That should tell you how tough it is. I wouldn't hesitate to carry my Survive 5.1 or my 10 ANYWHERE in the wilderness. They are that good.

 

[B34NS]

they're both probably around 58-60, but it's not the hardness you should only be looking at in terms of performance.

 

[Big Mike]

S7 steel, how does it compare to others?

S7 is a very tough steel indeed. Though toughness is not is all that's needed in a knife blade.

S7 is a very good candidate for a sharpened pry-bar, not so much for a dedicated slicing tool.

A2 is a much better steel when it comes to balancing toughness with wear resistance.




Big Mike

 

[chiral.grolim]

You say if hardened to the same level s7 and a2 will be about the same. What is the sk4 and bark river a2 hardened too ?

BRKT Bravo 1 in A2 (close comparator, esp. if choosing the drop-point, rampless, thumb-jimp, matte-canvas option (what a mouthful!)) is hardened/tempered to 58-59Rc. The BRKT will be slightly more wear-resistant. HOWEVER the knife with thinner geometry will noticeably outperform the thicker-edged knife, and the A2 Bravo1 I used to own was certainly thinner behind the edge than my GSO-4.1 or SK-4. With that in mind, the nod definitely goes to the BRKT for wear-resistance. But like toughness, resistance to abrasive wear isn't everything either. How you plan on using the knife should determine what features are most important and to what degree.

 

[knife chop]

S7 is as tough as it gets and with the right HT can be a solid blade steel for choppers and hard use tools.

The main issue with the steel is it only quenches to 58-59. It just isnt hard enough to support a thin (.010-.015) edge after tempering back to 56-57. If the edge is left fairly thick (>~.025) it can be a fine knife steel.

However for a smashing and chopping tool with some meat behind the edge it can be a great performer. Im looking into using it for some bush swords

To summarize, a very poor choice for a thin slicing knife and a solid choice for a hard use blade with a fairly thick edge.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this S7's thickness behind the edge was .007" -.009" without damage. SEE VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDnX9bY6CIw

P.S No "unsupported chopping phenomenon" occurred.

 

[wolverine_173]

I would use it for light wood processing. Hunting, food prep, woodwork.
Which is why im more interested in edge holding abilities. Im not worried about breaking it.

So edge holding generally is in thos order worst to best 1095, s7, a2, 3v

 

[knife chop]

I would use it for light wood processing. Hunting, food prep, woodwork.
Which is why im more interested in edge holding abilities. Im not worried about breaking it.

So edge holding generally is in thos order worst to best 1095, s7, a2, 3v

What cut is the blade geometry. Mora's as an example, it can do all that you mentioned and after all that work. it might not be as sharp as out of the box but i will still do those tasks without noticeable issues.

 

[wolverine_173]

What cut is the blade geometry. Mora's as an example, it can do all that you mentioned and after all that work. it might not be as sharp as out of the box but i will still do those tasks without noticeable issues.

True, most knives made of any steel can do those task. But a Mora is a Mora. As far as looks, quality of material and fit and finish go I'm looking at bark river, survive and ka bar. Just trying to decide which will hold the edge best and is worth the money to me personally.

 

[knife chop]

True, most knives made of any steel can do those task. But a Mora is a Mora. As far as looks, quality of material and fit and finish go I'm looking at bark river, survive and ka bar. Just trying to decide which will hold the edge best and is worth the money to me personally.

I like survive! Knives. Bark river's are good. Beautiful knives but I have qualms on how they manufacture their knives. Right now I'm eyeing on koster bushmasters from knivesshipfree. Check it out, they sell fast.

 

[wolverine_173]

Nice knife.

I'm really interested in 3v. So what I'm getting from this thread is if I'm gonna spend 160 on a knife I should just go get a used a2 or 3v instead of s7 unless I plan on using my knife has a jack hammer

 

[chiral.grolim]

...I've been working with 3V quite a bit lately, I don't think it's the end all be all ultimate knife steel, but hell of a lot better than 01, A2, D2 if you gotta pick for a production style knife. S7 probably quicker to sharpen too, and less expensive than 3V.

I would use it for light wood processing. Hunting, food prep, woodwork.
Which is why im more interested in edge holding abilities. Im not worried about breaking it.

So edge holding generally is in thos order worst to best 1095, s7, a2, 3v

Keep in mind that discussing toughness is not simply a matter of breaking the entire knife, it can be reduced to breaking/chipping vs rolling at the very edge of your knife, i.e. dulling. Wear-resistance is against abrasive wear, most commonly experienced cutting material like cardboard, rope, hair-fibers (shaving & skinning), scraping (planer blades), etc. Slicing meat & veggies, carving/whittling wood, anytime there is risk of edge-impact - these depend more upon strength and toughness of the edge, i.e. highest hardness coupled with highest possible toughness in the thinnest possible geometry to stabilize it.
1095CV at ~56Rc (e.g. Becker/Kabar BK-16) has the lowest strength, toughness, and wear-resistance of the group. Unless it features substantially thinner geometry, it is inferior on all counts, and the coating is thicker and prone to dragging. Also, the product design (handle shape, materials, sheath, etc.) may be inferior, though the handle is longer, more accommodating of medium-large hands than the SK-4. And the BK-16 can be had for <$70.

BRKT Bravo 1 in A2 steel @ 58-59Rc is stronger and tougher and should have thinner edge geometry for improved cutting efficiency (though this may equalize them in strength/toughness, which is indeed the point). However the standard Bravo1 design is pretty sad. To begin, it is too fat but the "LT" version is better, you need to be sure to order one that is rampless, preferably drop-point, their thumb-jimping is NOT user friendly, they've had sheath issues so be selective there, their vast offering of pretty scales are mostly too slick, and the handle is so straight and round (at least on the fat version) that the knife tends to twist in hand. The destruction-test on a Bravo 1 did not go well (edge too fragile), but as previously stated it is quite thin at the edge (or mine was, anyway) and it sounds like you won't use it too hard. Oh, and then there is the reputation of their fans and the owner (Mike Stewart) ... yeah, I won't go there. And you can get all that for $200+ especially if you upgrade to 3V.

Survive! SK-4 is S7 steel @ 57-58Rc, much tougher than the rest but not quite as strong, not quite as wear-resistant as A2, it has 2X thicker edge geometry than the Bravo1 (0.028" vs 0.015") so it won't cut as aggressively unless modified... but it has superior handle design, the blade is cerakote'd to prevent corrosion, it comes with an excellent sheath, and as B34NS indicated, it is easy to sharpen. Can be had for <$160.
Survive! GSO-4.1 is somewhat superior to the SK-4 in almost every way but is also more expensive ~$190 unless a "factory second".

IMHO, I'd sooner check out the Makers section and get a custom knife rather than a BRKT: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/754-For-Sale-Fixed-Blades
If something you like doesn't pop up, you could always contact a maker (like KalEl above) and arrange something. There are also other BRKT models, I just pick on the one I've owned.
The BK-16 is cheaper, and lots of folks will happily make due with that :thumbup: Also you can upgrade it to micarta scales, get a better sheath, strip the coating ... in the end you'll pay as much for it as for the others but if that handle is more comfortable you won't regret it. The Survive! Knives are worth the money, imho, but may require thinning down the edge-shoulders to improve cutting if that is your desire. They certainly come shaving-sharp from the factory (I have video to prove it). However, if the handle doesn't suit you or can't be modified to your liking, you'll regret the purchase... but you could always sell it for little if any loss and still get something else

As with most BF suggestions, get ALL of them and THEN decide

 

[Lennyo3034]

I'm sure I'm not the only one that's thinking it. How does S7 compare to INFI?