That touchy thing about the use of ivory...

S

SterlingHammer

Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
49
I sure don't condone the killing of elephants and such just for their tusks. It's truely a disgusting act of wastfulness. (I always imagine how starving folks an elephant could feed...
I use it in silver vessel repair, as it's commonly found as either feet or insulators on 19th century and earlier coffee & tea service sets. However, I don't believe any modern day silversmiths use it in new work, and I've never seen it in use in any of the shows I've been in.

So how "naughty" is it to use old ivory in knife handles? I have a handful of nice slabs and the opportunity to acquire a set of piano keys, which will provide a supply of small ebony pieces and thin ivory pieces.

Thanks, all.
 
The Ivory on piano keys is about 1/16 thick so it's not thick enough for handles. Using pre-ban ivory is what is most commonly used. There is a museum in Ohio cutting up old tusks, that is where I get mine, it comes with all the necessary paperwork.
 
As far as I know, where elephant are legally sport-hunted today, including those hunted for ivory, those hunted as part of problem animal control (crop raiders and others presenting a danger to the population), and tuskless cows hunted as part of a conservation strategy where populations are high, a serious effort is made to recover as much meat as possible and the meat is not wasted.

Where ivory poaching is involved there is certainly wasted meat and there may be places so remote that elephants are hunted and the meat not used, but I do not know where that might be. Under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species tight control as been placed on the trade in ivory. That has helped reduce poaching to some degree and has also made it essential that the owner of any elephant products (ivory, leather, tail-hair bracelets) be able to establish the legality. I know of one person who moved an an old piano to Canada and had significant trouble bringing it back to the US.

Sorry for the digression. There are a number of countries in southern Africa with an excess elephant population and controlled hunting under the auspices of CITES brings in much-needed foreign currency and large amounts of protein.
 
And it's not just NOW that have elephants in the crops either. We have safely locked away in storage several Kgs of old Ivory dating back to 1920 when my Great Grandad was at missionary station in the congo, and the only white man in several hundred miles with a rifle capable of taking down elephants, which meant the natives came callign every time a beastie started chowing down on their crops. CITEs is in the 50's or 60's I think some of the oddments grandad collected are from the 1800s.

Over the years my Grandmother made and sold hundreds of pre CITEs ivory pieces, necklaces, jewlery boxes, carvings and sculptures, the whites for chess sets. She was an artist.
 
striper28 said:
The Ivory on piano keys is about 1/16 thick so it's not thick enough for handles. Using pre-ban ivory is what is most commonly used. There is a museum in Ohio cutting up old tusks, that is where I get mine, it comes with all the necessary paperwork.
Click to expand...
I realize that the piano key ivory is super thin, but I intend to use it for inlay in ebony and other special applications. It's just too precious to throw away.

I assume you are purchasing this museum ivory. Is this a difficult train to get on? (Do I have to actually BE "somebody"?)
-And, if you don't mind, how expensive is it? I have no clue what so ever on what would be a fair price for a decent slab.

I've used old hair brush handles, mirror handles, etc... It's amazing how large some of the pieces are in antiques.

Thanks, all.
 
Sterling,
Have you ever been on an elephant hunt? Have you ever even been in a country where elephant are legally hunted? Have you ever shared a makeshift hut with native trackers because you were to many DAYS away from the truck to return? I can personally assure you that you indeed cannot even begin to imagine how many natives an elephant DOES feed! Not to mention the monetary contributions made directly to said villages through the hunting of said elephants. Rest assured, ivory has almost nothing to do with why people spend 60K on an elpephant hunt.
An uninformed opinion is a terrible thing to flaunt.
Matt Doyle
 
To answer your original question, Sterling: yes, ivory is generally still prized amongst knife collectors. As the supply of pre-ban ivory dwindles, "substitutes" have gained popularity. Among those substitutes are legal fossil mammoth ivory, fossil walrus ivory, hippo ivory and warthog tusks. They are all readily available.

Recycled ivory piano keys are very popular with scrimshanders. I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to get them. To me, all ivory is precious, too.
 
fitzo said:
To answer your original question, Sterling: yes, ivory is generally still prized amongst knife collectors. As the supply of pre-ban ivory dwindles, "substitutes" have gained popularity. Among those substitutes are legal fossil mammoth ivory, fossil walrus ivory, hippo ivory and warthog tusks. They are all readily available.

Recycled ivory piano keys are very popular with scrimshanders. I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to get them. To me, all ivory is precious, too.
Click to expand...
That's great, and pretty much why I asked; I see a lot of "substitues" available, so I wasn't sure if it was completely banned or not.

mdoyle, I think you misunderstood; it's simple poaching that I don't condone, and in this day of PC it seems every time one brings up a subject that might strike a sensative chord with some, their comment has to be brecluded by; "-not that I condone that sort of thing...", or, "-not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you...", ect.
Please don't take offence, and I believe if you reread my original post you'll see that I'm not witch-hunting at all.
I myself am a novice hunter and an almost strict carnivore. I only asked because I have the material and wanted to know if I can sell a knife I make using it.
 
Boone trading company here Washington state has some legal ivory also. He started in the business when he was a kid and has gathered quite a selection. Old billiard balls, carvings, tusks and etc. He also has Mammoth, narwhal, sperm whale and about every other type of ivory. I went out and visited one day. Very nice guy. He has a huge set of mammoth tusks as well as some great narwhal tusks that are about 6 ft long, straight as a string with a slow twist down the length. These were gathered many many years ago in the far north part of Alaska. He also has some Stella seacow bone, very dense and a nice tan. He has a site at. http://www.boonetrading.com/
 
Hi Sterling, Sorry to not have a real answer for you but I want to clarify something, being 'African'...

"waste of meat" has nothing to do with the banning of ivory. Sure, in practical terms it is a waste but its not the reason.

Across the world the elephant is at very low numbers, they are culled (or what you may call legally hunted) in certain zones as they cause countless destruction to the landscape, killing trees and putting other species' existence at risk.

Tribal culture is something no foreigners will understand: Any hefty sum given to the chief of a starving tribe goes to enriching the chief alone, while the tribe remains starving and the elephant continues to extinction... they dont care.. they see no reason to care.

Africa is not a huge game reserve of roaming wildlife as the documentaries lead you to believe. South Africa as I understand has one of the highest proportions of land area commited to conservation, which is frightening because it is pityfully small.

I have seen ivory sold at such reserves as carved art pieces, clearly through legal routes, but where you will find stock material ivory I do not know.

I'm not meaning to offend either but I know that many people have very manufactured views of african wildlife.

Lang
 
While you can purchase legal pre-ban epephant ivory (pre-1974 I believe), be sure to obtain the proper documentation that it is pre-ban.
Also, I am told that it would not be legal to export that knife with elephant ivory handles outside the U.S....and I assume that any importation of ivory is also prohibited but don't know for sure.
 
Gee whiz. I sure didn't want to open my membership on this board like this.
I'm not here to argue any issues of morality. But some of you are making me feel the need to defend myself.
-I swear, no matter where you go, you're damned if you do; damned if you don't. :rolleyes:

My statements were put there to AVOID exactly this type of digression from my topic.
In anticipation of being "educated" thusly regarding the FLIP side of this issue, I precluded my question with a remark in an attempt to remove myself from the opportunity to be pounced on.

-I'm REALLY sorry that I did.
I just want to use ivory on a knife.
I doubt I could bring myself to actually shoot one, but I would eat an elephant steak in a heartbeat.

Now back on topic...

Does bone dust pose a health risk?
 
Sterling,
I am very sorry if I misinterpreted the intentions of your statement. It's a very sore subject with me in which nearly everyone including most "Africans" seem to be completely misinformed. Sorry to offend you or become offended myself when you were trying to avoid that.
Wear a respirator, use ONLY sharp belts, and grind VERY slowly. If you heat up the ivory it will warp, change the color, and chip. Just use patience. When drilling holes back up your holes with heavy tape and use a woodworking brad point type drill bit to just pierce through the other side of the hole. After starting your hole like this flip over and drill back through. This will help to avoid splintering. It's a beautiful material that makes a superb handle. If you have some ivory that was legally harvested you should definitely use it!:thumbup: Preserve wit mineral oil occasionally to keep from drying out.
Matt
 
Ivories (teeth) and bone both contain two potential health risks when grinding. One is the rather small possibility that your particular biology is going to have an allergic reaction to the biological constituents of the material. If you are an asthma sufferer, it could initiate an acute episode. Secondly, there is the undesirable cumulative effect of particulate exposure. Both ivories and bone tend to generate very fine dust that poses a chronic inhalation concern.

General concensus in knifemaking is that there is so very much exposure that a good respirator should be considered a standard safety precaution worn whenever dusts or fumes are generated.

Depending on your facial hair, there are several choices of possible respiratory protection.
 
Sterling, my apologies for my going off on a tangent. Nothing was directed at you or anyone.. So let me give you a proper welcome to bladeforums and I hope you stick around for a long while.

I would follow mikes advise and just use a good respirator at all times.

Lang
 
Thanks, everyone.
I'll be sure to post the knife when I finish the handle. I'm still uncertain if I will choose to use the ivory on this particular blade, as it is D2, and the last time I used ivory on a non-stainless blade, it discolored along the spine of the tang just from the steel reacting to my hand sweat.
I may save the premium ivory pieces I have for a better steel.
 
I am using 'Piano Ivory' I bought on E-bay as inlayments in a water-buffalo knife handle.
I enjoy working with it. It isn't to much an unfriendly material to work with.
I use needle files mostly and a little bit I use a scalpel.
 
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