The "Ask Nathan a question" thread

Nathan, see Josh from REK's response to my question about DLC coating an FK2. Thoughts? Has anyone here DLC coated one of your knives?

"Yeah, I'm taking orders for a batch now... You would need to check with Nathan to make sure the temper would be fine, my DLC is applied at 500F."

Hell no. That's a problem. Stay away from my knives with those temps. Renders eta carbide useless, reducing cryo to just retained austinite conversion and little else.
 
Sure. There won't even be a meaningful reduction in Rockwell hardness, but the difference in edge stability would be apparent in a side-by-side comparison.

Interesting. So how do makers like Spyderco DLC/PVD/TiCN coat their blades without affecting edge stability?

As badass as a DLC FK2 would be, I won't bastardize your magical heat treat. :thumbsup:
 
Interesting. So how do makers like Spyderco DLC/PVD/TiCN coat their blades without affecting edge stability?

As badass as a DLC FK2 would be, I won't bastardize your magical heat treat. :thumbsup:

Manufacturers like that already have a number of other heat related issues such as automatic bevel grinding in the hardened state and high-speed dry sharpening. They make the best of their situation by utilizing the secondary hardness hump. They're leaving some performance on the table.
 
Interesting. So how do makers like Spyderco DLC/PVD/TiCN coat their blades without affecting edge stability?

As badass as a DLC FK2 would be, I won't bastardize your magical heat treat. :thumbsup:
- Different heat treats. Nathan's Delta heat treat for 3V is unique to CPK blades (and I believe Dan Keffeler's?).
- doing the coating before the heat treat is also an option, but the simple fact is, most mass manufactured blades use a standard heat treat, without the process Nathan developed/specifies.

P.S.
Lol. Already addressed by the evil genius.
 
I, on the other hand, avoid blacked out blades cause it hides the beauty of the steel and its finish. I understand the purpose of a blackout blade from a tactical scenario. I just don’t go sneeking around the neighborhood very often….
The standard finish isn't that reflective as-is, and as Nate's mentioned, D3V doesn't really rust that easily, which was my primary consideration for a coating, hence the juice not being worth the squeeze.

Besides, suppressed subsonics are better for taking out sentries :p
 
^ this is the secondary hardening hump. While the hardness (and strength) of the matrix is going down some with the higher tempers, the measured hardness is offset by the precipitation of secondary carbides. And, in the standard heat treat that has a lot of retained austenite (due to the slow quench and relatively high final quench temperature) the decomposition of retained austenite. It's a good heat treat for tool and die that needs minimize risk of cracking and distortion and benefits from some stabilized RA and carbon lean martensite because there is minimal part growth. <--- this is very important in tool and die. But it lacks fine edge stability because the weak areas of over tempered martensite and RA are like the perforations in a postage stamp, allowing a narrow feature like a knife edge to chip off or fold over. It doesn't work well in a thin knife edge. You need a more homogeneous micro structure and the harder and higher strength matrix of a lower temper range. But this approach requires addressing the tendency of 3V to want to stabilize retained austenite with a faster quench and deeper quench than would be advised in tool and die type work. This is the trick to any of the low temper tweaks. We're acknowledging that we're not working with huge monolithic chunks of (very expensive) high precision steel parts with hugely varying sections, but are working on relatively thin and comparatively uniform knife blades that are just fine even if they grow a little. And they do. The industry standard heat treat isn't optimized for knives.

Lots of manufacturers use the industry standard heat treat and it is very durable. And it has a crumbly mushy edge that sort of defeats the purpose of an abrasion resistant steel in a rough use application because it would just go dull from impacts. Our delta heat treat protocol addresses this issue and it is the purpose of the protocol.
 
^ this is the secondary hardening hump. While the hardness (and strength) of the matrix is going down some with the higher tempers, the measured hardness is offset by the precipitation of secondary carbides. And, in the standard heat treat that has a lot of retained austenite (due to the slow quench and relatively high final quench temperature) the decomposition of retained austenite. It's a good heat treat for tool and die that needs minimize risk of cracking and distortion and benefits from some stabilized RA and carbon lean martensite because there is minimal part growth. <--- this is very important in tool and die. But it lacks fine edge stability because the weak areas of over tempered martensite and RA are like the perforations in a postage stamp, allowing a narrow feature like a knife edge to chip off or fold over. It doesn't work well in a thin knife edge. You need a more homogeneous micro structure and the harder and higher strength matrix of a lower temper range. But this approach requires addressing the tendency of 3V to want to stabilize retained austenite with a faster quench and deeper quench than would be advised in tool and die type work. This is the trick to any of the low temper tweaks. We're acknowledging that we're not working with huge monolithic chunks of (very expensive) high precision steel parts with hugely varying sections, but are working on relatively thin and comparatively uniform knife blades that are just fine even if they grow a little. And they do. The industry standard heat treat isn't optimized for knives.

Lots of manufacturers use the industry standard heat treat and it is very durable. And it has a crumbly mushy edge that sort of defeats the purpose of an abrasion resistant steel in a rough use application because it would just go dull from impacts. Our delta heat treat protocol addresses this issue and it is the purpose of the protocol.
Do you know how Peters' does it for a so-called Bladesports protocol? I know they use cryo, but would you expect it to be more similar to the standard one in the data sheet?
 
I, on the other hand, avoid blacked out blades cause it hides the beauty of the steel and its finish. I understand the purpose of a blackout blade from a tactical scenario. I just don’t go sneeking around the neighborhood very often….
It would’ve mostly been done for corrosion, but I haven’t had an issue with that out here in SoCal.
I love sneaking around my neighborhood in my tactical pajamas.
 
^ this is the secondary hardening hump. While the hardness (and strength) of the matrix is going down some with the higher tempers, the measured hardness is offset by the precipitation of secondary carbides. And, in the standard heat treat that has a lot of retained austenite (due to the slow quench and relatively high final quench temperature) the decomposition of retained austenite. It's a good heat treat for tool and die that needs minimize risk of cracking and distortion and benefits from some stabilized RA and carbon lean martensite because there is minimal part growth. <--- this is very important in tool and die. But it lacks fine edge stability because the weak areas of over tempered martensite and RA are like the perforations in a postage stamp, allowing a narrow feature like a knife edge to chip off or fold over. It doesn't work well in a thin knife edge. You need a more homogeneous micro structure and the harder and higher strength matrix of a lower temper range. But this approach requires addressing the tendency of 3V to want to stabilize retained austenite with a faster quench and deeper quench than would be advised in tool and die type work. This is the trick to any of the low temper tweaks. We're acknowledging that we're not working with huge monolithic chunks of (very expensive) high precision steel parts with hugely varying sections, but are working on relatively thin and comparatively uniform knife blades that are just fine even if they grow a little. And they do. The industry standard heat treat isn't optimized for knives.

Lots of manufacturers use the industry standard heat treat and it is very durable. And it has a crumbly mushy edge that sort of defeats the purpose of an abrasion resistant steel in a rough use application because it would just go dull from impacts. Our delta heat treat protocol addresses this issue and it is the purpose of the protocol.

I've been reading about this stuff, and I'm actually starting to pick up what you put down
 
Do you know how Peters' does it for a so-called Bladesports protocol? I know they use cryo, but would you expect it to be more similar to the standard one in the data sheet?

3V isn't used much for Blade Sports. Due to the deductions for ripples most folks run steels a little harder than the sweet spot for 3V. M4 used to be popular but now we run 4V, V4E more. I run at 63-64. It has a lot in common with 3V. Even though it has a more catastrophic failure mode it can be run thinner with less risk of dents which helps in the races.

We developed an optimized heat treat for this material and then compared notes with Peter's. They're substantially similar.

So yes, you can go to Peter's and get Bladesports steels with a Bladesports protocol. It is nothing like the "standard" heat treat in the data sheet. Totally different.
 
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