The cultural edge geometry of a dime

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I just read another post telling someone to judge edge thickness pre HT by the thickness of a dime. One poster said the edge had to be at least the thickness of a dime. The other poster agreed and suggested that would be about .015 to .020.

HOW SKINNY DO YOU AMERICANS MAKE YOUR COINS? :eek:

I just mic'd a Canadian dime and the edge is about .049. The centre is about .037 :confused:

Rob!
 
I just read another post telling someone to judge edge thickness pre HT by the thickness of a dime. One poster said the edge had to be at least the thickness of a dime. The other poster agreed and suggested that would be about .015 to .020.

HOW SKINNY DO YOU AMERICANS MAKE YOUR COINS? :eek:

I just mic'd a Canadian dime and the edge is about .049. The centre is about .037 :confused:

Rob!

I have a 1992 'merican dime here

.054" at the edge



I think that rule is mostly applied to Carbon steel HT in fire that needs decarb ground off...
 
i think it was my post you read. i tend to leave mine a little thicker before ht but that is due to how i heat treat (with a torch) i dont have my calipers close or i would measure a dime. i can tell you that they are close to the same thickness judging by eye.
 
I noticed the same thing a few months ago, I have seen it in a few threads ".020 - About the thickness of a Dime" I had to throw my calipers on a dime and had the same results as 1-10...
 
I think it's confusing two different recommendations.

The "thickness of a dime" is advice for forged blades where you have to grind off scale and decarb after HT.

The .020 is for air hardening with foil wrap or similar where you're mainly concerned about edge warping but don't need/plan to do any grinding post HT.

Putting both recommendations in a word processor and hitting puree is not too useful.
 
I answered the way I did for a couple of reasons,one if they have a set of calipers or a micrometer they will measure the edge and never check a dime,but most new guys don't have proper measuring devices and you can tell them the thickness of a dime and they can relate to it.And most of the time I don't type as clear an explanation as I would like to.:o
Stan
 
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Sorry guys. I must have phrased it wrong. This wasn't supposed to be a question about edge thickness. I really had seen the advice so often I wondered if the US dime was thinner that I remembered.

I read a while back that an average guy's err... reproductive organ... was three times the length of his thumb. I've been looking at my thumbs for weeks now..... :o

Rob!
 
Sorry guys. I must have phrased it wrong. This wasn't supposed to be a question about edge thickness. I really had seen the advice so often I wondered if the US dime was thinner that I remembered.

I read a while back that an average guy's err... reproductive organ... was three times the length of his thumb. I've been looking at my thumbs for weeks now..... :o

Rob!

If that is true my thumbs are way longer than they are supposed to be. :p
 
dime in Starrett micrometer .0524", .0528", .0526", .0524" at 4 spots around the edge, I've had good luck with carbon steel ground to about that before HT, of course my HT practices involve a closed kiln with charcoal added to consume any present oxygen and convert it to CO to minimize decarb
YMMV

-Page
 
This is actually a very helpful thread. I've been confused by this in the past myself.
 
When advising a new maker about grinding /filing/sanding the bevels, the use of a familiar object is easier, and more likely to be visualized than an abstract measurement. Saying "Sand/File to about .040" " will produce many different thicknesses, as most folks have no idea what that thickness looks like. Saying "about the thickness of a dime" will give a mental picture, and a physical object they can pull out of their pocket, that will get close to the desired edge thickness. A dime is approx. .050", and since most folks will over sand/file their first blades, trying to get them to stop there on the filing usually ends up as .030-.040" by the time they are ready to HT the blade.

I usually recommend that the first filing stage stop at the thickness of a nickel, then the sanding at a dime. With those approximates, the post HT edge should end up .010-.020 after sanding down the scale and decarb.
If enough edge thickness isn't left to remove in final sanding and polishing, the edge may end up sharpened, but with a layer of decarb still on it. It will seem to be a bad HT, and not hold up well until the third or fourth sharpening,.....when suddenly the knife starts cutting much better.


Now, as to cultural history of the "thin" dime":

When I was a boy a dime was different than today. First, it was a reasonable amount of money, often about ten minutes work. It was likely the highest value coin a person had in his pocket, as quarters, half dollars, and silver dollars, were heavy and not often carried.
The term "thin as a dime", "One thin dime",and "slick as a dime", come from those days when dimes were made from real silver (either sterling or coin grade). The silver wore down with wear in ones pockets and from handling, and before the dime was very old, the coin was often nearly .030 thick or less. The surface was smooth and the features of the coin and date would often be unreadable. I have seen them where the edge was worn down to almost nothing, maybe .010" .

This wear made for problems with the banks taking in rolled dimes from people. A roll of thin dimes could be as much as 1" shorter than a roll of new dimes. Most dimes with normal wear would be about 1/2" shorter. The tellers would feel they were being cheated by being given a "Short Roll". This made the tellers have to hand count the coins and re-roll them every time a short roll came in. If the roll looked OK, they would skip the re-count and take it in for $5. It was not uncommon to get a roll from the bank in the daily change pickup for businesses, and find the dime rolls were two or three dimes short of $5. Register ladies in stores and diners ( few were men back then), would count the rolled coins as they filled their till, as they had to pay any shortage at the end of the day from their own pockets.

As one who grew up realizing that a dime...and even a penny, had value, it makes me sick to see the young people today walk out of a 7-11 and throw their change on the ground.
When my daughter was a young teen ager, I noticed there were pennies in her bedroom trash can . I took them out , but the next time I was doing the trash, there were more. I took them out, too. When Saturday came around and she was expecting her weekly allowance of $5, she didn't get it. She came to me when going out with friends for the evening to get the money and I told her that she would get no more allowances. She looked shocked, and asked why? I told her if she felt that it was worthless and would throw it away, I was not going to give it to her, because it was still valuable to me. She said that she valued it a lot. Then I mentioned the pennies to her, and she understood. I let her go that week with no allowance. She though I was mean. The next week I noticed a jar on her dresser with change in it. To this day she saves every coin she gets in change and puts it in a big jar. Once a year she rolls it and has a big night on the town....just from saving a few pennies, nickles, and dimes.
 
When Stacy (I think it wasy Stacy) first told me I should leave an edge thickness of .03 inches, I confess I had no idea how thick that was. I own two sets of calipers (one digital, one analog) and a micrometer. I pulled the micrometer out and checked the width suggested and figured he MUST have made a typo. But, I blunted the edge I was working on at the time... probably only to the 0.15 range though... then sent the blade off for HT.

Had he said at the time I should blunt it to the edge thickness of a dime, I probably would have ignored the advice altogether. That's just too thick and blunt for someone who does final sanding by hand.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the advice regarding edge thickness is good general advice, but there are probably a more sophisticated set of guidelines that would offer more specific advice under varying circumstances. Would you use the same thickness guidelines for all types of steel? Would you vary them at all based on the overall thickness of the blade? Would they change based on the mass of the blade?

One other sidebar... assuming that most new makers don't have access to precise measuring tools is probably a false assumption. Harbor Freight sells plastic analog calipers for between $2 and $7, and the digital calipers can be had for less than $20 when on sale. I bought mine early in the hobby to allow me to compare thicknesses of nails and drill bits. If you really assume someone doesn't have a tool you know they need, suggest where the can get it cheaply. Missing an edge thickness by 30% - 100% because you used a visual reference point instead of a measured reference point would mean the difference between a knife and a letter opener.

- Greg
 
I think it really just depends on what type of knife you are trying to make, how you plan to heat treat it, forge/furnace atmosphere, type of steel, amount of stock reduction, overall blade geometry, etc... no good hard fast rule I know of. Rather than give folks a rule that doesn’t always hold up, I think it’s better to teach them the variables and how to deal with them.

If the edge is too thin in relationship to the overall blade geometry, the edge itself can warp during the quench. In my opinion that's the main thing to look out for,... if all the other considerations have already been made.
 
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Good point about the edges wearing thin Stacy. That thicker rim around the outside of the dime would suggest they have mitigated the problem by edge packing the coins for a more dense molecular structure in the wear zone. :)
 
Would you use the same thickness guidelines for all types of steel? Would you vary them at all based on the overall thickness of the blade? Would they change based on the mass of the blade?

No, yes, yes.

One other sidebar... assuming that most new makers don't have access to precise measuring tools is probably a false assumption.

Thank you! Contradictory examples like ".030inch, or a dime" are a disservice, could be construed as a near insult, and confused the heck out of me for some time. Luckily I can read a ruler and use a calculator. Why not just recommend .030" (or about 1/32") instead? :confused:

We use standard measurements so we can communicate effectively; we all know what an inch or millimeter looks like. With all respect, I see little value in assuming someone is going to blow it, and basing arbitrary, misleading comparisons on one's lack of faith in their ability to follow instructions and read a $5 rule or $20 calipers.

We all dogpile on anyone who recommends, "oh, just heat it a nice cherry red in the shadow of an elm tree after lunch on a cloudy day." How is that any different from, "shoot for pocket change because you're going to screw it up anyway"?

Sorry for the rant but I'm wierd like that; don't tell me to cut you off "about yay much string", give me an actual measurement and you'll get what you ask for.

That thicker rim around the outside of the dime would suggest they have mitigated the problem by edge packing the coins for a more dense molecular structure in the wear zone. :)

That must be it! But can you make a dime out a '62 Chevy leafspring?!? :D
 
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I am a new knife maker, I have calipers, I have a few dimes (On the rare occasion I had some cash to spend that day). I actually like the "About the thickness of a dime" It does make the edge thickness Familiar. That is where I stop my rough profiling, pull out the calipers and check all my dimensions. I then change belt grits, make any small corrections and take it down to .030. There are actually 3 things I have in my leather apron pockets, Sharpie marker, Small stainless steel ruler, and cheap plastic calipers.

Stacy, it always amazes me how much time you take sharing your advice and helping. Thanks again!
 
Since I have yet to start my first REAL knife (got a couple practice blades done from junk steel in the auto-shop), I had often wondered about the recommendation of leaving the edge at a dime's thickness pre-HT. In my mind, I'm thinking how incredibly hard its going to be to sand the edge down to where you want it post-HT, due to the hardened steel.

I know how hard it is for me to try and take a ready-to-go mirror polished blank and put a brushed finish on it...and that's just altering the surface, not really taking much material off at all.

I would suppose that post HT finishing of the edge is done on the grinder, and then finished by hand? For some reason, I was thinking that after HT it was ALL done by hand.
 
Since I have yet to start my first REAL knife (got a couple practice blades done from junk steel in the auto-shop), I had often wondered about the recommendation of leaving the edge at a dime's thickness pre-HT. In my mind, I'm thinking how incredibly hard its going to be to sand the edge down to where you want it post-HT, due to the hardened steel.

I know how hard it is for me to try and take a ready-to-go mirror polished blank and put a brushed finish on it...and that's just altering the surface, not really taking much material off at all.

I would suppose that post HT finishing of the edge is done on the grinder, and then finished by hand? For some reason, I was thinking that after HT it was ALL done by hand.

If you have a grinder... otherwise it is done by hand.
 
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