The Fighting Knife

[Rotte]

Christof --

I lost our conversation about the Applegate-Fairbairn knife and thought I'd bring it up here.

From what I've read and discussions I've had with those who train with fighting knives, I like the philosophy behind the A-F knife. The blade is of sufficient length to cause a lethal wound. The double edge allows better penetration of the target as well as serving to 'cut both ways'. The handle was designed to keep it from rolling in the hand and allow a degree of 'indexing.' The hilt protects the hand from sliding forward on the blade. This is what I've gathered from my 'research', not being an expert myself.

It's interesting how many similar-type knives there were to the A-F, the Fairbairn-Sykes and V-42 being obvious examples. The design is probably as old as knapped flints. I have some illustrations in Firearms, Traps, and Tools of the Mountain Men by Russell picturing similar double edges knives and 'dags' used by explorers as well as indigenous peoples.

I'd be interested in hearing other's thoughts on this style of knife and maybe work toward designing a Koyote version of the fighting knife.

 

[Snake Dr.]

I like the Idea of a Koyote Custom's Fairbairn Sykes Dagger Rendition by Christof, I've alway's wanted a Nice one ! I have a Copy a Friend gave me a Long Time ago, I'll get some picture's of It here In awhile, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbairn-Sykes_Fighting_Knife

Here's my Made In China Copy, It's Marked Hanwei with a small makers mark by the name, And Dalian China "That's all the Marking's, It's 12 9/16" Total with a 7 1/4" Blade, It's 1/8" Thick & 6/8" Wide below the Handguard and tapers on from there, The Handle Is Made of Leather "Real Thin Washer's"

I can see a Koyote Rendition already ! What do you Think Christof ? Are you ready for a New Style of Fighting Dagger ? And have you ever Made one befor ? This Is another Good Topic Rotte and I know your ready for a Koyote Knive's Fairbairn Sykes Dagger,

 

[Rotte]

Snake --

That is a copy of the famous V-42. It was handmade for the members a a joint US/Canadian mountain warfare unit in WWII. These guys kicked some ass in Italy. An original V-42 is highly sought after as few were made.

Edit: A quick google search came up with 1st Special Service Force as the originating unit. Cool.

 

[Snake Dr.]

Thank's for the Info. Rotte, I wasnt sure what I had, It even mention's the Replica I have was Made by Swordsmith Paul Chen for Hanwei, Even the Sheath I have Is almost the same as the one In the picture, It would sure be Nice to Find an Original Made by Case "I'll be keeping my eye out at the Gun Show's" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-42_Stiletto

I found a Link to the Hanwei Web-Site with the one I have listed for Sale,
http://www.hanweishop.com/proddetail.php?prod=KH2124

 

[koyote]

I'm going to have photos of Sierra's fighter in a few hours. I made it over a year ago and recently thinned out the handle profile for her- It's not like a S-F style, but is an interesting point for talking about.

As far as the fairbairn style itself goes, I have a certain amount of love for it....and a certain amount of dislike in some details. I've had paki, sheffield, V42, and US style daggers (like the gerber) in the past and I have a few thoughts that make things feel strange.


First, inspiration! Here's a knife made by one of our BF knifemakers, dave larsen:

I'm using his photo with credit to him because this knife inspired two responsed to my original conversation with Rotte.

As it happens, I like this dagger profile a bit better than the S-F, but can see the advantages to the S-F profile.

The stacked handle gave me absolute fits, though. I've been wanting a SW Asia Service Medal themed knife for a while, and have considered doing Afghan, Iraq and other theatre award 'tshirt' knives. What I had not considered was doing the colors of the award ribbons as stacked handles. And that I want to do! (with some civilian and branch variants, I expect)

Now, for real down and dirty usage, I think the S-F handle is too thin, like the guard design, and would prefer a broader flat or full convex singe edge blade for the same mass of metal that could actually cut, but with a fine tip to it like that.

I made this one fairly recently:

and that's closer to the blade profile, if bigger.

Size is a concern- My tendency is to go for a 7-8 inch blade and a touch more mass on something like this, and use the more triangular blades like the sgian dubh when going with blades in the 4-5.5 inch range. But the S-F design is very deliberately slim and light, at 6-7 inches.

I'd be fine with a 2/3 double edge on something like that, with a steep angle on the reverse side. This is also one of the very few cases where I would consider serrations on one side of the blade.

 

[Snake Dr.]

I like the Big Ol Double Edged Dagger with the Para-Cord Wrap Handle, It look's Great In Hand, It appear's to have some size to It, What's the Spec.'s on that one ? You sure nuff did a Great Job on It and Sierra's Sheath look's to be a Perfect Fit and Beautiful !
The Theater Dagger Is a Good Design, But I like the the Big Ol Dagger you Made It's calling my Name,

I'll bet them Leather Washer Stacked Handle's are a lot different then Working with the Wood,

If you made one like the one above with a Pyramid Shaped Pommel and a Cord Wrapped Handle with a Needle Point Blade Tip like the FS Dagger would be Nice,

 

[koyote]

Sierra's fighter is 8 inches on the blade, but still a thin convex- 1/8 inch thick. I made it a while ago, towards the beginning- it was the first through tang with a peened butt cap I did. Once I got the handle profile tweaked to fit her hands, it worked out really well. 8 inch blade, BTW

not good photos, I will fix that in daylight:

How this relates to the topic is in the handle method and the disc guard. I think I might go for a more disclike guard, and a peeened tang, even with a thinner handle profile.

 

[Snake Dr.]

I like Sierra's Fighter, You did a Nice Job on that one Christof, Nice Knife Sierra "That's what you need right there" ! And It seem's to fit your hand perfect,

 

[Rotte]

I like the Tsuba-style guard on Sierra's knife. Seems both aesthetic and functional. A fighter definitely needs a guard in my opinion. Good looking knife overall. 8" blade seems about right. It's funny to me when people make 3.5" 'fighters.' Makes no sense to me. I'm sure opinions vary widely, but anything short of 6" seems like an ineffective weapon. A 4" Opinel is better than nothing, but if you are setting out to design a fighting knife, 6" should be the starting point in my non-expert opinion.

 

[Rockywolf]

I like the Tsuba-style guard on Sierra's knife. Seems both aesthetic and functional. A fighter definitely needs a guard in my opinion. Good looking knife overall. 8" blade seems about right. It's funny to me when people make 3.5" 'fighters.' Makes no sense to me. I'm sure opinions vary widely, but anything short of 6" seems like an ineffective weapon. A 4" Opinel is better than nothing, but if you are setting out to design a fighting knife, 6" should be the starting point in my non-expert opinion.

I like the look of Sierra's knife, but I'm curious as to what kind of fighting are you thinking about? I have been a martial arts instructor for almost 30 years and we do a lot of edged weapons training. In traditional, we use the longer knives for sparring, but in reality, I would use a tiny little knife with a fixed blade and easy to grip handle.

 

[Rotte]

but in reality, I would use a tiny little knife with a fixed blade and easy to grip handle.

Rocky, you may have this thought out better than I have given your background. My thinking is that in a combat situation where things have gotten to the point where a knife is a viable weapon, I'd like to be the guy with the longer weapon with more reach. Something along the lines of a Scottish Claymore would work for me.

I don't know of any real experts is this field, so I turn to history as a guide. Historically, fighting knives have been big blades, even short swords. Back when combat was conducted at close range, the boys making the choices were choosing bigger blades: Bowies, Dirks, K-bars, Trench knives, wakizashi, plains dags, etc....

Having read about guys who actually used their knives in combat effectively, the commonalities are pointy and 6"+. Applegate and Fairbairn put a lot of thought into their revision of the F-S knife and came up with 6" as the ideal size. Even that seems a bit short to me. The Scottish Dirk with a 14" blade would give me a better sense of security. But of course A & F were designing a knife that could be carried with modern kit. I suspect they would say that 6" is the smallest practical size for a fighting knife.

From an anatomic point of view, a bigger knife will do more damage and is more likely to end a fight more quickly. This makes sense to me. So I'd pick a 6" double-edged knife over a 3.5" folder. And I'd pick an 18" machete over the 6" dag. The reality is that you'll use what ever you have at hand, and maybe just your hand.

Are you saying you would prefer to have a small knife if given the choice, or just that a small knife is what you are likely to have in a life or death situation? If so, why?

 

[koyote]

Well, there are exceptions to everything- for example, the sgian dubh blades with the 4.5 inch blades aand intergral semi-guards and palmable grips are perfect for backup blades. But that is as small as I'd go, and I wouldn't do that with just any knife.

I think Rocky has more weapons experience than I do, but I've got enough martial arts experience to know that I'm mostly better off with my hands and feet and even grappling if I'm looking at my armament being a 3 inch folder! But I've also spent most of my time in either military oriented schools or Hapkido, and my training says crush the throat, bladder, and ribs as fast as you can rather than slice open forearms.

All that being said- Sierra mostly works on the reverse punch and knife hand variations with knife- so rear hand knife hold. Same as we use for hawks and large blades (incidentally, same as I learned sword and shield, modulo stance angle differences) and it works well with that. She practices on a pell in the back yard.

I don't think I like the guard size for a real knife duelling scenario, but she's working on home invasion principles. I also would totally go for one of the small horizontal carry SD designs like the patriot or the sgian dubh for surprise street attacks.....


Where the F-S design comes in is with the light and fast blade with more penetration as a military fighter. If you get into ballistics circles, there will commonly be seen an idea that you need 5 to 7 inches of penetration to kill- knives aren't that much different in those terms. if I'm going to stick someone in the ribs I definitely like the longer length.

now, a 13 inch blade single edged D guard langseax would be about my perfect idea for a fighter, so I need to think about different kinds of fighting when considering a F-S type knife. It's a dirty, nasty, mean shiv for dark nights and tight hallways. In which case I still want a disk like guard! I don't know how I feel abotu the foil grip, I did put a hint of epee into Sierra's.

 

[Rotte]

Where the F-S design comes in is with the light and fast blade with more penetration as a military fighter.

...

It's a dirty, nasty, mean shiv for dark nights and tight hallways.

Oh, that was nicely said. And +1 for the disk guard. The grip on the F-S seems way too small to me. I think the A-F is a big improvement.

 

[koyote]

If I was going to keep the "war economics" production style I might even go with a 1/8 inch thick flat sides "triangular profile" or wedge blade (like the sgian dubh) with a full double edge saber, scandi, or convex and then pit a disc guard on a handle similar to Sierra's. I personally like the curve to the handle but I could go for straight. The metal butt cap I might make thicker for balance. Maybe go for brass fore and aft.

 

[Rotte]

Brass fore and aft would be very nice and might make the blade feel a bit 'quicker.'

My understanding of the V-42 design is that the thumb indent was there to remind the used to orient the knife in the horizontal plane when making a strong thrust. The idea being that the knife wold slip between the ribs and not get wedged into the ribs. If you follow that idea, then a straight handle would make more sense. Sierra's demi-epee is awfully nice though....

1/8 steel seems a bit thin in the 'nasty shiv' model. I'm thinking about 250 pounds of lunging GI and gear driving that steel into webbing, buckles, armor, flesh and bone. Don't want a 'snap' in that scenario. Maybe I'm not giving 1/8" stock enough credit, but I think 5/32 or even 3/16 stock would feel more reliable. 3/16th is starting to get a bit thick I suppose.

I generally don't like saber grinds, but in this application it would make sense.

Well, Rocky has me thinking, so I guess I'd better do a bit more research.

 

[koyote]

Oh, 1/8 would be fine if you use a 1.25 or 1.5 inch wide base for the blade and do a long triangle or wedge to a spearpoint.

if I was going to really narrow, I would even go 1/4 inch tang thickness and distal from 1/4 at the hilt evenly down to 1/8 right before the tip.

 

[Snake Dr.]

This Is the one I like Chistof, When you get the Order done I have In Now, I'd like to Order something close to this, 7" Double Edged Blade, Cord Wrap Handle, With a Pyrimid Shaped Scull Crusher Pommel, Basic & Easy to make, And I want It In Rough Forged Finish, I can see It already, :thumbup:

 

[Rockywolf]

I'm on my phone now so typing isn't as easy. I have more to say, but go with your gut. My opinion is just that, an opinion.
How easy is it to stab vs slash? There is a reason the samurai has swords designed in the shape of a curve.
Even a tanto has that curve, and while it can and did stab, the speed, hand positioning, and angles were faster ans easier to deploy. Think gross motor vs fine motor.
And yes Rotte, I would choose a small, easily concealed fixed blade, one that may be easier to get to, than anything else. My first instructor, a tough Korean who taught us a hybrid hapkido/tae kwon do blend (combat,not tournament)always told us body first, weapon second.

 

[koyote]

Oh, take your time Rockywolf- I'm not making a new design tonight

I'm curious for more feedback on the F-S knife in particular, anyway.

 

[Rotte]

I'm curious for more feedback on the F-S knife in particular, anyway.

That goes for me too....