Spiral writes
Well Kohei,
You certainly seem to hold your own, when it comes to
your martial arts knowledge & sources!
I know my knowledge of these skills doesnt even start compared to you & many others on this forum, but I still want to see what Dan Harden comes back with, if he can!
Unless he disapears as well!
Perhaps he will start with "a friend of mine who almost wrote the book your talking about but has a different name, thats not on the cover, says!" etc.etc.
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Im glad Koheis knowledge of the martial arts impresses you. Im quite sure that says something........
You will pardon me if the knowledge expressed and ability to quote from a book leaves me a little dry.
I liken this to the kids quoting Hagakure from their only source material
..Ghost dog the movie.
And thinking they have an understanding of the mindset of the samurai class. While not having the stomach, time nor the interest to read something like Budoshoshinshu-equally light but more mainsteam in its view. The former was a simplistic, radical and extreme view of a soldiers job that was in many ways preparatorially mundane.
The later? I guess discussing the "deep secret" of getting to your post-watch on time escapes most people- which explains why they show up at the dojo late... heh heh
Anyway, I think you misunderstand the issues here. The subject is deeper then an opinion expressed in a single work and a surburan white kids quoting it. Stating Draegers supposed opinions about the Ninja here in 2004 from a book he wrote in the early 70s does not even begin to cut it. Draeger wrote those books as part of his on going research into the Martial arts of Japan which later expanded to include his own theories of a cultures influence on its fighting styles and the inverse; how fighting styles influences cultures. This theory was pursued and supported by several indigenous cultures that became part of his studies. This pursuit led him to the formation of hoplology.
Perhaps you missed the reference, But I stated that proper respect was due the author and I wanted to get personal responses back from his fellow researchers who walked with him and wrote with him. Several of whom are authors and one who is currently researching his book. Ive sat and talked into the wee hours with them and trained with them and I stated clearly that it might take a while to respond. That was just a few short days ago. Quoting from early work in a book when the author is no longer around may due for those with limited understanding of the material. Perhaps that is as far as you would like to go?
The works that induded the "ninja" references was just that "early work." More research has been done and theories developed and/or dropped in the ensuing years. Funny thing about books. You write them and then you move on, discover more, flesh out earlier theories-sometimes abandoning earlier ones altogether. But the early works remain for forever and you can live to see your own words thrown back at you. If you happen to pass on-hopefully your work continues
Dons early works on the Bugei of Japan
Classical Bujutsu
Classical Budo: the martial ways of Japan
Modern Bujutsu/budo
Comprehensive Asian fighting arts
were lauded for their ground breaking information to a western audience -but there was quite bit that reflected personal views and definitions that were not completely accurate, as well as burgeoning research that was not even done by the Japanese at the time.
Our young Kohei is repeating information from one source that has been updated by many, refuted by others. Were she to use the same reference material to explain the use of the phraseology of Bujutsu and Budo and its clear distinctions as outlined in those same books she would be greatly mistaken as well.
Now, we can all listen to that, and you may laud her ability to throw out a few quotes from a singular work if you so choose. However, the use of those particualr terms and the clear distinctions that Don used to help his western audience is anything _but_ accurate.
But I shant let that dissuade the many people who have picked them up and quote them all over the net and in Dojo across the land. The use of the terms, as with many things Japanese is grey and is not defined the way they are used in the those same series of books. Kohei may also quote the references to Aikido, and to Iaido as well. They do not come close to Dons later views of both as conveyed by his close personal friends. But so be it.
He was an extraordinary gentleman by all accounts, and a pillar of each and every Caucasians future forays into the martial arts of Japan. Chances are that no one , myself included would be in TSKSR if it were not for his footsteps we followed.
You could add to your reading list his research into the arts of Indonesia as well.
Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia Draeger
I might also suggest The three Classical warrior traditions books by the Skosses (friends and fellow researchers of Dons)
Koryu Bujutsu
edited by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books).
Sword & Spirit--Standard Edition
edited by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books). edited by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books).
Keiko Shokon--Standard Edition
edited by Diane Skoss (Koryu Books).
Meik can expand on the relationship and research done by the group of them in Japan and the later work that followed
The excellent book
Martial Musings
by Robert W. Smith
Has references to Don and the relationship with the author.
I would also suggest Ellis good works
Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions
by Ellis Amdur (Edgework).
Last the series of Daves works from Autumn lightning to the present
Traditions: Essays on the Japanese Martial Arts and Ways
by Dave Lowry
I would add some translations of earlier works translated from the original Japanese
Samurai: An Illustrated History
by Mitsuo Kure (Tuttle).
Legends of the Samurai
by Hiroaki Sato (Overlook).
A Way to Victory
translated by Hidy Ochiai (Overlook).
Anyway, this will fill in gaps and offer a larger picture of the arts of Japan instead of the reference here and a reference there version.
I will still respond to Koheis questions of ninjas from her
sempai.
But in the manner it warrants. In the Internet era I realize this I want it now attitude-but correct information from as close to the source as possible seems fitting.
Cheers
Dan
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P.S.
I thought You might be intered in this as well.
It is from one of the above referenced authors Diane Skoss. Her husband was a close friend of Don who acommpanied him in his trips and who spent 26 years in Japan training in Koryu and many modern arts as well. He is fluent in Japanese an quite familiar and converscent with the source material. The opinion offered herein more accurately reflects the current mainstream view.
Visit the Skosses site at
www.Koryu.com they are deligthful people. She-more than he..heh heh Buys some books!Ask for an autographed copy! Or you may buy them at Barnes and Noble
Ninjutsu: is it koryu bujutsu?
by Diane Skoss
We've been accused of unreasonable prejudice against the popular "ninjutsu"-derived arts. Simply put, it is our opinion that modern-day ninjutsu and ninjutsu-derived arts are not koryu bujutsu. They are not based on a continuous transmission of technique and culture. Koryu.com covers koryu bujutsu. That doesn't mean that arts we don't cover are not worthwhile. We just don't cover them. Given that this is my site, I think that is my perogative.
Let me say this again, since it seems some people don't understand. Koryu.com does not cover ninjutsu! The art and those derived from it do not fall into our definition of the koryu bujutsu. Period. If you want to define the koryu differently, that's fine. Just don't ask us to change our definition, which is based on considerable first-hand experience and decades of research in Japanese source material. Please do not trouble yourself to write us to try and convince us to change our minds. It will not work.
We have made every effort to be as low-key as possible on the issue of "Is ninjutsu koryu?" We do not stress or advertise our position. That's because we sincerely believe that if your training is working for you then it is none of our business. However, if you come to us and ask whether we consider ninjutsu or the Bujinkan-derived arts to be koryu--well, we can only provide our honest opinion.
Please, please, please don't waste your time or ours. We really are familiar with the material relating to this issue; unless you happen to be a Japanese scholar who delves into ancient makimono, you won't turn up something we haven't seen and considered. Again, just because we don't share the same opinion doesn't mean that we are not all doing useful and good training. Yoroshiku onegaishimasu. I really appreciate your consideration!
