The latch … what good is it ??

S

Scott Evans

Joined
Oct 4, 1998
Messages
193

Yes I know it’s a silly question but I am curios if I am alone in my thoughts on this. Recently my interest in the balisong knife has been revived. There are all levels to this ranging from pure therapeutic to complex (for me that is) new techniques of manipulation. Anyway … I’m hooked once again and as always hate that stupid latch. For me the ideal carry is in a horizontal Kydex rig with the hinge forward (inserted in the sheath). Grab the handle, pull directly into an opening move. Very fast … without the latch that is. I’ve seen the latch opening technique and am not sold on its tactical value yet.

So … is it balisong sacrilege to remove the latch or to have a knife made without one?


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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”
 
I seem to be in the minority that thinks the latch is a necessary, and very usefull part of the Balisong. Here are a few reasons why:

~ The Latch drop opening (a nice quick draw move)

~ Keeping the knife tightly closed when using a closed Bali for striking.

~ Keeping the Bali securely open when changing between grips. Executing a Pivot for example.

~ THE most important reason for me is: It can help keep you oriented as to which way the blade is facing. Open or closed, all it takes is a brush of the Thumb (ice-pick grip)or Pinky (forward grip) and you know which way the cutting edge is facing......... without even having to look.


Most people want to get rid of the latch because it gets caught between the handles and knicks up the blade, or even because it can catch unexpectedly.

This is not the Latches fault, it's yours!

Quote from my Tip of the Week (8-29-99):
"So, maybe it's not the latch that has to go....... maybe we just have to take a closer look, and refine our techniques a bit. It could be there's a lesson in all of this that a lot of people won't get because, instead of trying to see WHY it happens and adjusting to it, they take the easy way out. I'm not preaching...... it's just an observation. Don't cheat yourself."

Check here for the full story:
http://www.balisongxtreme.com/baliplanet2/tips/8-29-99.htm


So you see........The Latch is also a GREAT indicator of having your techniques down tight. Do you need any more reasons???



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Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
 
Clay,
I guess I’m not a purest yet … but I’m trying to be.
smile.gif


I see your point with regard to indexing awareness through the movements.

I have no formal training and some of my stuff comes from me “winging it” (i.e. improvising or inventing on my own) until I get something that gets the blade where I want it. This being the case I haven’t considered the latch as any kind of indicator of technical proficiency. I’m sure one day I will be properly instructed and struggle through the process of unlearning “bad habits”.

The latch draw thing; every time I have seen it demonstrated it is fast … ; however, it brings the blade open with the cutting edge facing the wrong way for a proper reverse grip. For me this requires an extra move to turn the blade toward the opponent. An opening move in my mind is not complete until the knife is properly oriented in either a classic reverse grip or a forward grip. A double edge blade would be an exception here as it would not matter, however the awareness element is then irrelevant.

A secure grip suffices in keeping the blade open or the knife closed as in striking (or at least for me it has so far).

Blade damage from the latch is not a factor yet as I have no $300 + balisongs … .

I want more reasons …
smile.gif



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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”
 
Latchless balisongs certainly do exist. Consider this latchless beauty:

elishewitz_s.JPG


(The click for larger image doesn't work here on the forum. To see the larger image, you'll have to find this picture on my web site and then click on it there)


But, latchless balisongs are much less common because of the latch's great utility. (I had to order that one latchless specially.) Aside from keeping the knife safely closed in your pocket (nothing like fishing around for a quarter for the meter and ending up slicing your hand open, eh?), the latch is also essential to lock the balisong open. The balisong achieves it's great lock strength only when, well, when locked. So, a latchless balisong can not acheive the great lock strength that is one of the balisong's greatest asset.

As Clay pointed out, the second important function of the latch is to index the knife. This is how you keep track of which handle you have in your hand when things get going really fast.

So, is it a crime to remove the latch? No. In fact, a latchless balisong (not the result of a Dremel job) is actually more valuable (since they're less common).

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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com

[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 04-04-2000).]
 
I do the latch drop opening backwards from the way it's normally done. That way the blade is facing out, away from me. I can do it both ways and after learning the backwards way, it is way faster then I could ever do the other way. I snap my wrist like I'm cracking a whip. You can't even see it the handle or blade swing. When I carry, I keep the knife at my side, in it's case, unlatched, latch handle up.
James
 
clay is 100% right, i've used both latchless & with the latch! i'll go with the latch! go into your pocket in a hurry , one time & get cut real good & you'll go back to the latch!!!
 
Scott, I really prefer the latch opening, fastest in the east, when I get the new butterfly with the latch guard I'll probably do more of the normal stuff, but as to the latch opening and the blade facing the wrong way?
Well there is a trick when doing this, I place the latch between my thumb and first finger and let the handles rock forward and catch the other handle, BUT, when I want the edge to be facing to the front, I twist the latch between my fingers as I perform the opening and the edge is facing to the front and makes for a quick snap closed when done, takes practice, what doesn't? but it works very well for me. Give it a try
biggrin.gif


G2....waiting on the 42,
(it just occurred to me, in the Douglas Adams books they found that the answer to the universe was 42? Coincidence?)


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"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...


G2 LeatherWorks
 
Have you ever tried throwing a balisong with the latch undone. In a defense situation a good throw beats the hell out of a close up slash or stab.
 
OK, some of my opinions.

A latch opening is far to insecure in a high stress situation.

Nevetheless, a reverse grip opening with the edge towards you, reverse grip tip drag, is far more devastating than a traditional reverse grip defensive position, my last choice of preference.

As for the mdl 45, I thought I could overcome the tendency for the latch to catch under the blade through correct technique, I could not. Perhaps my failing perhaps not.

Searching for your bali in your pocket is a waste of time, latched or not. I wouldn't think of carrying it there amongst keys and coins, etc.

I believe there are other methods of indexing besides the latch. Maybe not available yet, but maybe I'll change that. Given what we know now, the bali could benefit from some new technology and ideas. I wouldn't do it for a living, but as a personal interest to improve the breed. Maybe a very small run.

The only advantage I can think of to a latch is the solid lockup and feeling when latched, but who's got the the time?

I think the latch gate and the new pivot system is great, but I think there's more innovation to come.

Still like Clay's spike blade idea.

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Ron Knight
 
Latching a balisong is probably not going to happen in the midst of a fight. The latch is for utility use. When latched, balisongs are virtually as strong and reliable as a fixed blade.

Indexing is one major use of the latch, but any minor feature can be used to index the knife. A small bump on one handle is all it would take. I index my Leatherman PST with the lanyard attachment. This way, I always stop on the right handle for the tool I want. Need a Philips? No problem. I can do an elaborate, three-minute opening stopping in exactly the right position to unfold the Philips, then jump into an equally elaborate three-minute closing and hand you the Philips driver you need, by which time you've probably got the screw out with your teeth. That's not the point. The point is that any tool needs a way to index it. I can dial my cell phone in traffic because there's two little bumps just below the five button. From that, I index the entire key pad. It's very important to have some feature to index things.

With the exception of gripping the blade and thrusting the handle at your attacker, all grip positions have merit. One of the great things about a balisong is the ability to transition between different grips easily. You can do this on other knives too, but the balisong does it with panache. As a friend of mine is fond of saying "Ya gotta look cool in those pants." (Inside joke)



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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
 
One of the photo's in Mike Janich's Street Steel is of his own latchless balisong in a custom kydex sheath. That was the first time I'd ever seen a latchless balisong (it had never dawned on me that it was a possibility) -- but with the right sheath, and with the knife carried consistently in the same orientation, I guess I can see why some folks might prefer such a system.

Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.



[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 04-07-2000).]
 
Latches would be a complete necessity on a utility butterfly, but I would order any bigger bali, intended more as a weapon without one.
 
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