The Liberty Series

WOW, Howard :eek:

Fantastic designs for sure. I love that thinner one. Reminds me a lot of the Trisul that HI used to offer except with a nice sweeping clip. Excellent knives. I look forward to purchasing one of these sooner or later:)
 
Love all three designs.

As some one who owns a KLO and a KLO machete, I appreciate a guard.
 
What kind of guard did the Romans put on their gladius? :)

I think they had exactly what you went on to say, a whole martial art system, with that relatively short sword only part of it.

Truth. The gladius was designed to incapacitate an opponent in a single stroke. It was definitely not a fencing weapon, and I'd wager the same is true of the khukuri. That being said, more of a guard certainly doesn't strike me as a bad thing. It's a cool idea, for sure, although not aesthetically my cup of tea. Nice collaboration!
 
there was a guard on the gladius
View attachment 363378 <-click for larger photo
a bronze oval plate backed by wood on this one.

it is there mostly to keep your hand from sliding forward onto the blade while thrusting.

roman era fighters, in spite of hollywood, did not engage in parrying with their swords. the metal was in general nowhere near as good as our modern steel, parrying risked bending or breaking your blade. defence was what your shield was for. while they did use the edge, most often they would just thrust past the right edge of their shield in short stabbing motions in unison as they advanced, stabbing the enemy to your right in his exposed side (or whatever was handy) rather than the one in front presenting his shield to you. the guy to your left would stab the enemy in front of you. the shield wall advanced, and the wounded enemy would be trampled and/or finished off by the man behind you. the guy all the way to the left was usually one of the more senior veterans as he had no one to his left to stab the guy in front and he had to deal with him as well as the enemy to the right. the roman buzz saw advanced and ground the enemy to chopped meat.
 
Did anyone notice the other L3 khuk, which recently sold, lost a 1/2" and gained almost half a pound? I wonder how that effects handling. Take care.
 
I think my old kitchen scale is broken. Trust Yangdu's weights. I'll modify the original post later when I get to a real computer.
 
Thanks for the info, kronckew. Fascinating stuf for sure. Do you know anything about the Spartan way of using the sword in the phalanx formation? The reason I ask is that kukuri better resembles the skopis sword, as opposed to gladius. So if we knew more technicalities relating to that, we could be onto something... I know, I know, the roman legion is considered far superior to Greek phalanx, but it's still relevant.

Thanks in advance,
iliam
 
Thanks for the info, kronckew. Fascinating stuf for sure. Do you know anything about the Spartan way of using the sword in the phalanx formation? The reason I ask is that kukuri better resembles the skopis sword, as opposed to gladius. So if we knew more technicalities relating to that, we could be onto something... I know, I know, the roman legion is considered far superior to Greek phalanx, but it's still relevant.

Thanks in advance,
iliam

the greek phalanx depended on the spear as the primary weapon. the greek Xiphos double edged leaf bladed short sword was very much a backup only used if the spear broke (or was cut through). the kopis was also favoured as it's bent shape could get around the enemies shield better, or make a better chop than the xiphos. the greeks were trained to fight other greeks, also in phalanx, and battles were usually a pushing contest. the heavy bronze covered shields with their arm band and hand grip were set up for pushing rather than a more mobile defence. opposing phalanx pushed until one side wore out and started getting pushed back. then the killing began. most of the deaths occurred after the losing side broke formation and started to run.

romans coming up against the phalanx were initially defeated if the greek generals properly anchored and protected their flanks and rear (like the spartans did at thermopylea). the main trouble was the greeks were inflexible, and used the same formation even if their flanks were open and their rear unprotected. the romans started winning by being more flexible and refusing to attack head on, and by going around and attacking from the sides and rear, the greeks couldn't maneuver their spears fast enough to change fronts. republican roman formations of the time also used the spear (hasta) as a primary weapon, and a tall center handgrip shield more suited to individual defence. both sides used light javelins thrown by skirmishers to open the battle. romans eventually dropped using the hasta, went to a shorter (and lighter) rectangular shield, and relied more on softening up with heavy javelins (the pilum) and then using the sword. roman armies did continue to use the hasta for special purposes and formations and for cavalry.

well after rome subdued greece, they came up against the dacians, trajan's column in rome still portrays the roman conquest of dacia in northern greece (modern bulgaria, romania, serbia). (note: pronounced with the 'c' as 'ch'. ie. datch-ee-ah) whose main weapon of choice was the two handed falx, with it's recurved blade sharp on the inside of the curve. it could cleave roman shields from the top down to the handgrip in one blow, or cut through a roman helmet to cleave the skull beneath. most roman casualties were from this. the romans added a heavy X shaped crossbar to the tops of their helmets to strengthen them thereafter. and improved the edging on the shields. dacia survives today as the brand name for an inexpensive automobile made in romania.

after the third century a.d. or so, the traditional roman legion, marius' mules, started to be unaffordable, auxilliarys who were no roman were used more often, sheild went to flat ovals, then round, swords got longer. and the phalanx-like shield wall became the formation of choice, until william broke the saxon shield wall with cavalry at hastings in 1066. after that, the infantry in medieval europe were the lowest dregs of the army rather than the highest, the cavalry - the knights. cavalry reigned supreme thru the crusades, mongol hordes, turkish invasions, etc.

that flip-flopped back again after crecy and agincourt, where the longbowmen broke the french elite. gunpowder then also was introduced, and oddly, the phalanx (swiss pikemen or scottish shiltroons) came back into favour and won battles until the musket put paid to the edged weapon.

however, never forget gibb's rule no. 9.
 
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the greek phalanx depended on the spear as the primary weapon. the greek Xiphos double edged leaf bladed short sword was very much a backup only used if the spear broke (or was cut through). the kopis was also favoured as it's bent shape could get around the enemies shield better, or make a better chop than the xiphos...

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/Historical.htm
I love this page full of historic Kukris and information on traditional Kukris put out by Bill Martino and copyrighted by you. Nice :thumbup:.

the phalanx.jpg
Also the above Greek/Roman history is truly fascinating kronckew.

Gibbs Rule #9: Never go anywhere without a knife.
 
sweetcostarica, the picture you posted looks like the latter macedonian phalanx used by phillip & alexander to great effect. the macedonian sarissa was up to 20 ft. +/- long, the more southerly greeks, including the spartans, had used a more normal 8ft. +/- spear called a 'dory'. note the use of the aspis (shield - also called a hoplon when used by the hoplites) on the left arm made the formation especially vulnerable on it's right flank. the swiss pikeman/scottish shiltroons in more recent times were essentially re-using a sarissa. the swiss added a refinement in that they dotted halberdmen along the flanks and internally for defence against infantry/cavalry attacks on the flanks, and against anyone who made it past the pike points. two handed swords were also used for this, more effective for anti-cavalry. the scottish variants being the claidheamh mòr (great sword) and the lochaber axe.
View attachment 363771View attachment 363772

even the chinese used two-handed swords (miao dao) for similar anti-horse purposes.
View attachment 363770

the swiss pikemen were so effective that the pope employed them as his bodyguard, and still does.
View attachment 363768

they use the halberd exclusively now for their mostly ceremonial duties. (they do have more modern weapons available tho. justincase)

the pike/sarissa fell out of use with more effective musketry and the developement of the bayonet - especially the socket bayonet.
the phalanx, using a bayonetted rifle instead of a pike is still in use, especially in ceremonial parades, less often in actual battle.
[video=youtube;LzKr_uP6lAg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzKr_uP6lAg[/video]
[video=youtube;c2tZzTwDL_E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tZzTwDL_E[/video]

On May 21, 2004, a convoy of British troops was attacked by a group of over 100 Mahdi militiamen, approximately 55 miles north of Basra, Iraq. The British convoy was made up of two unarmored vehicles carrying 20 Soldiers. The militiamen engaged the troops from roadside trenches using machinegun and RPG fire. The British vehicles were damaged and the Soldiers had to dismount and form a defensive perimeter. They radioed for help and a nearby squad from the Princess of Wales regiment came to their assistance. When the British troops ran low on ammunition, the decision was made to fix bayonets for a counter attack. The Soldiers charged across 600 feet of open ground toward enemy positions and engaged in hand-to-hand fighting with the Mahdi militia forces. Although they were outnumbered and low on ammunition, the British soldiers routed the militiamen. Twenty militiamen were killed in the bayonet charge and 35 were killed in the overall battle. The British Soldiers suffered only three injuries. Prior to this incident, the British last performed a bayonet charge in 1982 during the Falklands War.

in spite of president o'bamas belief in unmanned drones and remote control warfare, the bayonet is not yet obsolete.

the phalanx <-linky to interesting wiki article.
 
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View attachment 362163
And while using a baton it would be difficult to hit near the handle. Almost a sure thing that you will hit that guard (a lot). I like that Howard is thinking out of the box but this part just doesn't seem to work in my opinion.
...

SCR - I finally looked carefully at your post and understood what you are saying. I have used the udhaipur upon which the L3 was modeled for years and have batoned with it many times. The udhaipur is the same as the L3 but has no guard. One time back when Ron Hood was still with us I took it to one of his gatherings of wilderness afficianados. There was a knife chopping/batoning contest from which almost all my khukuris were excluded because they were too big and specialized (and because they would have won hands down.) The little skinny udhaipur was the only one allowed to compete with the busses, randals, tops, and other big name knives that came out. There was some disagreement as to whether my udhaipur won hands down, or only tied with the other first place contender.

During the contest I didn't see anyone try to baton a large knife next to the handle as you are doing in your picture, nor have I ever done it that way. It looks like it would hurt the hand from shock if nothing else, not to mention the smashing possibilities. I usually baton on the protruding end of the long knife, or directly over the wood to get things started.

You are absolutely correct, the L3 is not suitable for your style of batoning.
 
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Batonning near the handle is improper technique, abusive and dangerous.
 
Look at pictures of knives that snap off from batoning. They break at the ricasso, where the baton was hammering them. Wrong place for it and abusive amount of force also, I would bet.
 
During the contest I didn't see anyone try to baton a large knife next to the handle as you are doing in your picture, nor have I ever done it that way. It looks like it would hurt the hand from shock if nothing else, not to mention the smashing possibilities. I usually baton on the protruding end of the long knife, or directly over the wood to get things started.

You are absolutely correct, the L3 is not suitable for your style of batoning.
Howard, Karda, and Esav you are probably right. That makes sense what you said about batoning near the handle.
I first saw people doing this in videos and I followed it.

Here is what I am talking about and maybe it's wrong but you guys can verify if it's bad style/technique:
1) When I need to baton a piece wood I start hitting it in the center of the blade.
2) As the blades spine gets buried in the wood I start hitting the blade on the exposed end near the tip.
3) As my blade splits the wood it starts to push the handle up (see photo below).
Thus, I baton the spine area next to the handle (where the guard would be) down so the blade is mostly parallel to the ground.
Then I repeat step 2 & 3 as needed.

hit near the handle.jpg
I try to keep my knives level but I sometimes have my knives handles pops up when I baton the front tip area if the wood doesn't split through in step 1.
I see a lot of folk batoning their knives to correct it's angle on the spine near the handle. Could you fellows explain in words or in a short video the correct method of batoning wood with a Kukri or other large blade when the handle pops up and presents a bad angle. I don't know of a better way. Thanks.
 
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SCR - I'm no expert and won't declare any technique invalid. I may note safety concerns, or like Karda and Esav note the possibility of breaking your knife, knife handle, or (as you noted) guard. But I might baton on the side close to me if my knife got stuck in the manner you describe. I don't operate by rules as much as considerations of safety and effectiveness.

One great advantage of khukuris in batoning is the downward angle the handle makes when the blade is presented flat to the surface of the wood. This gives greater leverage to prevent the rotation of the knife you describe, and which motivated the batoning next to the handle.

If you do find yourself needing to baton on the other side of the rotation point, the L3 has plenty of length to hit on the straight portion of the blade, before the blade starts to curve downward towards the handle. (This assumes you're batoning through a reasonable sized piece of wood.) Of course you should take great care in a case like this that the baton does not sail down and hit the guard. If it does though, you should probably bless your lucky stars, because the thing behind the guard is your hand.

If you do get that kind of rotation and want to straighten things out another way, you might try smacking the wood against the ground while holding the knife. This will apply a torque in the correct direction to straighten the knife.
 
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If you do get that kind of rotation and want to straighten things out another way, you might try smacking the wood against the ground while holding the knife. This will apply a torque in the correct direction to straighten the knife.

This is also not a recommended batonning technique and is another good way to break the handle off your knife at the ricasso.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...mited-Lifetime-Warranty?p=6930491#post6930491

In the case of the handle getting raised during chopping, one should stop to assess the situation and remove the blade to start over if possible.
If not possible, find another object to widen the gap and loosen/free the blade.
Your hand gripping the handle should be firm and in control of keeping the blade level.
Knives, even HI khukuri, should not be used to take the place of splitting utensils. The object of batonning should be to process shake for small fires and firestarting, not wholesale processing/quartering of large rounds, that is what we have axes and hatchets for.
 
This is a great discussion on batoning and we are getting insights from many different angles.

I find that I haven't really needed to baton very many times. As Karda points out, better tools are usually available. But it is useful to have in your bag of tricks for when you might need it. If you do need it you may be in a situation where you are going to throw out rules and do what you need to do.

For instance, should a foolish individual find himself in the Olympic Rainforest of Washington State in winter, without an axe, when everything including standing deadwood had been completely soaked and then frozen over with a layer of ice, he might be willing to throw out rules of proper tool selection, appropriate wood sizes, and technique in order to start a fire. In such a case a knife of the approximate size and shape of the L3 could be a lifesaver. That doesn't get around the fact that the guy is an idiot for getting himself into such a situation without the proper gear, but I have information from a reliable source that such idiots exist. :D
 
Thanks Howard and Karda. I have learned to improve my technique and learned more about the L3 Kukri. I will practice what you preach :thumbup:. Thanks again.
 
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