The problem with 'survival' knives

People choose fixed blades over folders for harder use tasks as in a survival situation you really don't want to break your knife. I am also a firm believer in having at least two cutting tools in the woods for bushcrafting, camping, or even hiking. I generally choose a moderate knife (5-6" fixed blade) and a folder I am comfortable with. In most cases that's a SAK. The Buck 110 is a good knife, but since you are generally carrying it on your belt, I prefer the two blade versions as it give you more options and the extra weight is not much.

There are a lot of similarities between survival and bushcrafting in the woods. Lots of different situations and calling one thing in terms of techniques over the other are just words. The pointed bushcraft blades are popular and everyone seems to be making one now. I tend to go more traditional, but the reason for the pointy bushcraft blades is the strong point and easy of carry in terms of length.
 
Batoning is not necessary, anyway. I am 60 years old, and have yet needed to baton anything.

A wire splint is not necessary. I have carried a wire splint in my group first aid kit for sixty years and have yet to need it.
An Epipen is not necessary. I have carried a series of Epipens in my group first aid kit for 34 years and have yet to need it.

Not all emergencies go according to plan.

A Buck forum decided the iconic 110 was the best knife for X? I am shocked; shocked. But despite my shock, the 110 would do 99% of what I have ever needed to do with a knife - or a Epipen.
 

Over in the BUCK KNIVES forum, there was a survey on what the best "survival" knife would be, if you could only have one. The winner? The Buck 110 folding hunter. Short of batoning, the 110 can do everything needed of a good bushcraft knife. Batoning is not necessary, anyway. I am 60 years old, and have yet needed to baton anything
.


Willful ignorance in a knife specific forum does not make rule of law. Just because a bunch of 110 fans claimed in the Buck forum that the 110 is the do it all knife doesn't make it so. And the fact that they picked a folder as the do it all knife shows a lack of knowledge on their part. A folder at any size will never be a better choice than a fixed blade of that same size. So obviously a choice to be ignored.

As for Batoning, you have not been in a position to need to do it. Good for you. To state that it is not necessary shows a lack of understanding of how to use all available means and tools at your disposal.
 
. Batoning is not necessary, anyway. I am 60 years old, and have yet needed to baton anything.

Unless I miss my guess, by that logic spacesuits aren't necessary either, since in your 60 years of life you've never used one.

Open heart surgery isn't necessary...I'm 38 years old and I've never used it. ;)

To declare what is or isn't necessary based only on your own life experiences tends to fall short.
 
Hey! Boris never needed anything but his trusty Schrade! No idea if he did any open heart surgeries with it though. :D
I'd never trust ANY folder more than a fixed blade. I'm a fan of the 110, but in this case it's a big "meh" from me.
 
Is there a practical difference between the two? "Bushcrafting" is "survival" if you think about it. In bushcrafting, you make a shelter, possibly a bed, and a fire for heating and cooking. You process game and/or fish, build traps and snares for the game and fish. How is that any different from "survival" other than it may not have been planned for when you left the house?

Over in the BUCK KNIVES forum, there was a survey on what the best "survival" knife would be, if you could only have one. The winner? The Buck 110 folding hunter. Short of batoning, the 110 can do everything needed of a good bushcraft knife. Batoning is not necessary, anyway. I am 60 years old, and have yet needed to baton anything.

Like Sword and Shield said later, there is some similarity between the two, but there is a massive difference in the end if their priorities is confused. Bushcrafting is to willfully practice different wilderness skills to survive and thrive in outdoor environment. "Outdoor Survival", is one being subject to disaster/loss/injured without choice, objective is to stay alive and find rescue asap, hopefully within 72 hours.

So a 'bushcrafter' may bring a 'survival kit' along with his 'bushcrafter' gears, and the bushcrafting skills/gears may improve the 'outdoor survival' chances, but doesn't mean they are the most ideal.

[video=youtube;U26M09zgZF4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U26M09zgZF4[/video]
The gentleman here use a Vic Farmer to help saw off a trunk, imagine a fixed blade similar in size, how long will it take to baton until the trunk will separate in two? A 5in+ thick spine bushcraft 'chopper' knife may baton thru that easier, but will carry that knife expand more calories and in some way lower our chances in 'outdoor survival'? Will the same "chopper" be universally useful in tropical, arctic or dessert survival situation?
 
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This reminds me of: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

It seems to be an argument for buying more knives, which we shouldn't complain about. And an argument for playing with the knives at the expense of the local forest. I wanted a BK9 and I wanted to go play with it, but around here I would be likely to cut up stuff that doesn't need to be cut up, so I decided against it. If a person was going to expend as much effort planning for their survival as they did looking at different knives, they would carry appropriate gear for the situation.

I remember reading how you could bring certain materials with you to allow you to start a fire using the battery from your flashlight. Then somebody suggested that if you think ahead enough to bring those materials with you, you would just bring good matches or a good lighter instead. Somebody said "well you will lose all of your gear except the knife that you have on your belt", but how many hikers would carry a big knife on their belt? Would most people have the big knife in their pack to be lost along with their other gear?
 
A 110 is probably stronger than a SAK. Just saying..... any knife is better than no knife.
 
Like Sword and Shield said later, there is some similarity between the two, but there is a massive difference in the end if their priorities is confused. Bushcrafting is to willfully practice different wilderness skills to survive and thrive in outdoor environment. "Outdoor Survival", is one being subject to disaster/loss/injured without choice, objective is to stay alive and find rescue asap, hopefully within 72 hours.

So a 'bushcrafter' may bring a 'survival kit' along with his 'bushcrafter' gears, and the bushcrafting skills/gears may improve the 'outdoor survival' chances, but doesn't mean they are the most ideal.

[video=youtube;U26M09zgZF4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U26M09zgZF4[/video]
The gentleman here use a Vic Farmer to help saw off a trunk, imagine a fixed blade similar in size, how long will it take to baton until the trunk will separate in two? A 5in+ thick spine bushcraft 'chopper' knife may baton thru that easier, but will carry that knife expand more calories and in some way lower our chances in 'outdoor survival'? Will the same "chopper" be universally useful in tropical, arctic or dessert survival situation?

Once "wilderness survival" meant knowing how to survive in the wilderness with whatever you had available, including no man-made gear at all. Larry D. Olsen, still alive and teaching, wrote books on that topic: Outdoor Survival Skills (1968) and Wilderness Survival for the Boy Scouts. He started the Boulder Outdoor Survival School. He is a co-founder of the Rabbitstick gathering of primitive skills practitioners.

Today, the more recent definition is the one you set out, AKA "Modern Outdoor Survival."
 
The knives that people are reviewing seem to mainly get assessed on their ability to baton wood, with all other features ranking a distant second against this consideration. All the Youtube videos I have watched involve people smashing these knives into bits of wood with other bits of wood, and then commenting on whether the knife 'performed' or did not.

I fail to see how smashing up bits of pre-sawn wood with a knife has any relevance to an actual survival situation. Why and in what circumstances would you do this? What exactly are these smaller bits of wood used for, and how did the larger logs that are being batoned get sawn up? How much energy/calories are being expended on this task, and to what end?

The main relevance of the test seems to be that it is used to justify selecting a really large knife with a very thick blade. No other 'survival' test I have seen being performed in a Youtube video seems to require this blade size and strength as an attribute.

While I agree with you on the batoning, and especially finding a suitable piece of wood to baton or even baton with, I fail to see how you can make the above statements (that I put in bold) when there are tons of videos on chopping, chopping comparisons, chopping this or that. There are at least several dozens videos on chopping comparisons alone, and virtually all the videos that demonstrate batoning also demonstrate the knife's chopping ability...

Chopping is of course the main, and perhaps even the only valid reason to carry a big knife in the woods...: I am a bit mystified that you are not seeing that, and I have to wonder just what videos on Youtube you are watching?!?... You must be using some seriously different Youtube search terms methinks...

Gaston
 
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It seems to be an argument for buying more knives, which we shouldn't complain about. And an argument for playing with the knives at the expense of the local forest. I wanted a BK9 and I wanted to go play with it, but around here I would be likely to cut up stuff that doesn't need to be cut up, so I decided against it. If a person was going to expend as much effort planning for their survival as they did looking at different knives, they would carry appropriate gear for the situation.

I remember reading how you could bring certain materials with you to allow you to start a fire using the battery from your flashlight. Then somebody suggested that if you think ahead enough to bring those materials with you, you would just bring good matches or a good lighter instead. Somebody said "well you will lose all of your gear except the knife that you have on your belt", but how many hikers would carry a big knife on their belt? Would most people have the big knife in their pack to be lost along with their other gear?

You know what find utterly amazing? That people would think they can get so far away from civilization that they would feel confortable carrying openly a fixed blade knife... I mean openly on their belt... In my area, there is no clear distinction at all between the urban and the non-urban: You will come accross people in the most incredibly remote places (unless it is forests so densely overgrown that you can barely see or move in them...).

Just to not inspire disconfort to others, in the middle of nowhere, where it is scary enough to come accross strangers, I would never carry openly any knife of any sort... And do you really want to inspire a moron some ideas he might not have come up with on his own?

I slip my 9-10" blade knife inside the pants, under my jacket, and that's end of story...: Even sometimes with a small pouch in front of the sheath, it usually rides very well: I sometimes cut out the pouch in front if it doesn't... The biggest concern is superglueing all the main threads to prevent fraying... For walking it is actually the shorter knives that don't ride well at all inside the pants...: Anything under 8" rides poorly stuck inside the belt... Sometimes thick leather rides better than thinner leather: It is a bit unpredictable, but one thing for sure, as long as my pants are on, the knife is there, and if it falls it would be hard not to notice...

I find the idea of a nice expensive knife riding out in the open on a belt absurd for at least another reason: At the lightest rain the knife is exposed to water, and the sheath might accumulate water which will take days to dry out, even a plastic one, if I put nylon fabric inserts inside to stabilize and protect the blade from scratching...

And unlike a gun holster, which can be reached inside to dry it out with a rag, you absolutely can't do that with a knife sheath...

As Bill Bagwell used to say, in the old days they knew perfectly well how to use a simple sheath with a peg sticking out...

Gaston
 
Interesting thread and replies. I responded, and noticed that I wrote a huge wall of text. So I tried to format it a bit easier to make everyones life easier :/.

"Survival knives"

I think that the vibe I get from some is that people are thinking a single piece of gear will save them (in this case, a "survival" knife). For myself at least, that was/is not the case, so I guess I don't perceive those that ask for a "survival knife" as somehow thinking owning a piece of steel will get them rescued from a remote wilderness (by itself). This is a knife forum, and people will ask what knife the rest of the forum things is best for their needs, so of course we talk more about the knife part here than anything else. That does NOT mean that all of these people are not also researching other "survival" items like shelters, clothing, water purification, fire gear, etc elsewhere. I see it that people are coming and looking here in the knife forum, for a knife to fit into their overall "survival" gear (or what have you, I came here trying to find a knife for camping).

I also believe that the term "survival knife" has somewhat come to mean a genre of knives, so when people come and ask for one, they are looking for that "genre" (which is why I think so many scoff at Moras and other suggestions like that initially). I believe that a "survival" knife is a full tang, probably thicker than needed knife in a mostly midsize to largerish size range (at least that's what I generally assume when I see someone say they want one).

Big knife vs small knife vs axe vs hatchet vs machete

This is another epic topic that has been brought up. My take on it is that individual uses/skillsets/comfort levels and climates are variable enough that I think its safe to say that for the most part there is no right answer. All of those tools have been used by peoples around the world for a very long time, and they all survived, and each has its use (and proper ways to use as well).

Battoning

I agree with those that have said that its likely in many "test" because it is popular, and easy to do in the backyard. It also has a bit of a shock factor that comes from most people never hearing about it before, so it grabs their attention. Myself, I used to baton things for the sake of batoning (with my then shiny new BK2). Then, one day, as the "wow" factor was wearing off, I realized that some pieces of wood just shouldn't be split. Both because there is no need, and its just too dang hard. Then I learned something else equally valuable. Using a wedge to split wood makes it even easier. And ironically, I learned this with the BK2. Nowadays I split mostly wrist-calf sized wood (depends on your body type, but usually talking 2-4, maybe 5in) that is nice and straight grained. I split maybe one or two pieces like that, then dry the rest of the wood by the now lit fire.

I also cross grain baton when needed (making notches, using it instead of chopping, etc). I find it is MUCH more accurate than chopping with a knife. It can also make a 4-5in knife actually "chop", without needing a lot of blade length (in a pinch).

Anyway, I don't buy knives "for batoning". However, I do find it something I would like a knife to be able to do if needed (within reason). Because of that I will always want the knife on my belt to be capable of it "if" it ever needs to happen in a "oh no, my pack rolled down a mountain" situation. Knives like the BK15/16/17, ESEE 3/4, Survive 4.1, RMD, and Bravo 1 are all kind of in this category, which I think is why they're fairly popular.

Myself, when I head out into the woods, I typically take a Mora, BK9, and a folding saw, but it depends on the distance, type of outing, etc. If for some reason I had to choose a single tool for going into the outdoors for a long time (a la "Alone"), I'd be bringing a largerish knife myself (Becker BK12/Ritter MK2/ESEE 6). Mostly because my skillsets and comfort levels with them are higher. Could I make do with a Mora? Yes, I've learned techniques for small blades as well, but some things would take a considerable amount of extra effort and/or time. I realize that some smaller tasks with a larger knife take more effort/control/time/calories as well, but feel that overall you'd come out ahead with the larger knife (typically).

TLDR

Tools all have their uses and environments that they excel in, people have different environments, skill levels, and comfort levels. Very rarely is a single thing the "right" answer for everyone.
 
You know what find utterly amazing? That people would think they can get so far away from civilization that they would feel confortable carrying openly a fixed blade knife... I mean openly on their belt...

I very often carry a 10 inch bladed knife on my belt or with a baldric carry outside my jacket when in the woods, or on the way there.
On the trail out to the wooded area I most often go, we regularly pass other people, as it is a long, regularly used trail.
We pass people on horses, bikes, or just hiking along, and you know what?
Not a single one of them cared or got worried!

Because we're just walking along, looking like people headed out to the woods.
My brother has had a machete openly carried when we were headed out there, and people just said "Sure is a nice day for a hike", and happily went along with their business.

We're only 45 minutes from a major city too...and I feel comfortable.
And so does everyone else. :)
 
With all the "problems" being put forth, I think it should really be called:
The problem of people having problems with knives that they find problematic. :)
 
Stabby that was the main part that jumped out at me as well. Who could get far enough away from civilization that they'd feel comfortable *GASP* openly carrying a knife?!
That's just crazy talk Gaston! Hell, I don't carry any knives at all! Wouldn't want to offend somebody. I just bite everything open. :rolleyes:
 
Stabby that was the main part that jumped out at me as well. Who could get far enough away from civilization that they'd feel comfortable *GASP* openly carrying a knife?!
That's just crazy talk Gaston! Hell, I don't carry any knives at all! Wouldn't want to offend somebody. I just bite everything open. :rolleyes:

Yup. That has got to one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. Where I live it is not far from the Appalachian trail. About 30 minutes by car. But we are also only an hour and a half away from NYC, an hour to philly, and we live in the third most populous are of PA. We go hiking and camping frequently. Always have fixed blade on my belt or sometimes on my pack. Only time anyone has said anything was when I played knife doctor with one of my astronomy buddies. I showed him mine and he went to his truck and showed me his. Showed my daughter too:eek:. I've had countless interactions with various types of leos and not one word was said.

I in no way can understand what gaston is talking about.
 
I very often carry a 10 inch bladed knife on my belt or with a baldric carry outside my jacket when in the woods, or on the way there.
On the trail out to the wooded area I most often go, we regularly pass other people, as it is a long, regularly used trail.
We pass people on horses, bikes, or just hiking along, and you know what?
Not a single one of them cared or got worried!

Because we're just walking along, looking like people headed out to the woods.
My brother has had a machete openly carried when we were headed out there, and people just said "Sure is a nice day for a hike", and happily went along with their business.

We're only 45 minutes from a major city too...and I feel comfortable.
And so does everyone else. :)

That's because you are in America. Fortunately, the whole planet is not America... Given that it is less convenient, less secure, less confortable, more snag prone and damaging to a large knife to carry it in the open, I still don't find this in any way a good idea, even if you are in America...

Of course if you also carry a gun, openly or not, then you also don't care about meeting idiots. But I don't carry guns, so I'd rather anticipate what idiots are likely to think. Unless of course, you feel entitled to meet intelligent people: You can always count on that...

Gaston
 
You know what find utterly amazing? That people would think they can get so far away from civilization that they would feel confortable carrying openly a fixed blade knife... I mean openly on their belt... In my area, there is no clear distinction at all between the urban and the non-urban: You will come accross people in the most incredibly remote places (unless it is forests so densely overgrown that you can barely see or move in them...).

Just to not inspire disconfort to others, in the middle of nowhere, where it is scary enough to come accross strangers, I would never carry openly any knife of any sort... And do you really want to inspire a moron some ideas he might not have come up with on his own?

I slip my 9-10" bladed knife inside the pants, under my jacket, and that's end of story...: Even sometimes with a small pouch in front of the sheath, it usually rides very well: I sometimes cut out the pouch in front if it doesn't... The biggest concern is superglueing all the main threads to prevent fraying... For walking it is actually the shorter knives that don't ride well at all inside the pants...: Anything under 8" rides poorly stuck inside the belt... Sometimes thick leather rides better than thinner leather: It is a bit unpredictable, but one thing for sure, as long as my pants are on, the knife is there, and if it falls it would be hard not to notice...

I find the idea of a nice expensive knife riding out in the open on a belt absurd for at least another reason: At the lightest rain the knife is exposed to water, and the sheath might accumulate water which will take days to dry out, even a plastic one, if I put nylon fabric inserts inside to stabilize and protect the blade from scratching...

And unlike a gun holster, which can be reached inside to dry it out with a rag, you absolutely can't do that with a knife sheath...

As Bill Bagwell used to say, in the old days they knew perfectly well how to use a simple sheath with a peg sticking out...

Gaston

That's because you are in America. Fortunately, the whole planet is not America... Given that it is less convenient, less secure, less confortable, more snag prone and damaging to a large knife to carry it in the open, I still don't find this in any way a good idea, even if you are in America...

Of course if you also carry a gun, openly or not, then you also don't care about meeting idiots. But I don't carry guns, so I'd rather anticipate what idiots are likely to think. Unless of course, you feel entitled to meet intelligent people: You can always count on that...

Gaston

Sorry, but you must understand how ridiculous this all sounds. I mean I get it. You are not in America. Since you don't list it we don't know where the heck you are.

But come on. Sticking a 9-10" bladed knife (so 14-15" OAL) inside your pants for the comfort of others? Not wanting to have a knife open carried for fear of bad guys taking it? Not wanting to carry a knife open for fear it will get wet? Not carrying a knife for fear of losing it? If you fear losing a knife to a snag it sounds like your sheath system isn't up to snuff. I wouldn't worry about that at all as I my sheaths are secure enough to stand up to all I put them through.

You have come up with a lot of reasons not to carry a knife which I just don't get :confused:

But hey, if it works for you :thumbup:
 
That's because you are in America. Fortunately, the whole planet is not America... Given that it is less convenient, less secure, less confortable, more snag prone and damaging to a large knife to carry it in the open, I still don't find this in any way a good idea, even if you are in America...


Gaston

CANADA.
I live in Canada...just like my profile location lists.

And damaging to the knife?
Do you read the things you write?
 
Dear+Diary+today,+everybody+was+mad.jpg
 
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