The RAT, the hype is real!

cbrstar

cbrstar

Joined
Sep 7, 2015
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I've been curious about the RAT 1 for a while as It's in almost every knife review out there. Well at least every Nick Shabazz vid lol. Not often do you come across something that no one has any complaints about in this day an age.

Well this weekend a used one popped up on kijiji for only $20 cad!!

I have to say I wish I had come across one of these sooner. the fit and finish is awesome, and the way the blade pops open is fantastic. I don't know if I got a particularly good one but the detent is one of the best I've seen.

My only complaint is the clip. It's almost identical to the old clip you found on bryd knives except the holes are bigger. And the paint is rather thin...But easily fixed/replaced

But I'm sure you guys have heard all this before!

What I don't understand is why the other folding models get no love? The Joe Paradue models seem like decent knives and they are pretty cost effective
 
I’ve never owned one in aus-8, so I don’t know what the comparison would be for one in D2.
 
Great knife for the money. I use it when I want a workhorse and I don't want to worry about a more expensive knife.
 
It's ugly, but very functional. I picked one up at Walmart, display model, od green, aus 8. I really like it, feels good and has good balance, action is sweet. Have to say I'm glad I bought it on impulse!
 
cbrstar said:
The D2 will be even better! Aus 8 is ok but D2 is amazing
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Warning nsfw due to swearing.


These are safe for work and clean.



Imported d2 isn't idea for knives in comparison to other steels according to alot of testing.
 
Mo2 said:
Warning nsfw due to swearing.


These are safe for work and clean.



Imported d2 isn't idea for knives in comparison to other steels according to alot of testing.
Click to expand...

I will watch these vids when I get home from work. I know a lot of Chinese D2 is close to being D2 but not 100%. I'm not sure where Ontario sources it's "D2" from. The only tests I've seen is Cedrics test where the Ontario preformed decent. But he also made those moot by proving (With Ontario Rats no less) that quality of sharpening greatly improves edge retention.
 
cbrstar said:
I will watch these vids when I get home from work. I know a lot of Chinese D2 is close to being D2 but not 100%. I'm not sure where Ontario sources it's "D2" from. The only tests I've seen is Cedrics test where the Ontario preformed decent. But he also made those moot by proving (With Ontario Rats no less) that quality of sharpening greatly improves edge retention.
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Its not that they are not d2. The rat's and many of the imported d2 is indeed d2 while there are alot of fakes, let's ignore that for now.

The reason imported d2 is not idea is due to the heat treatment lacking in multiple aspects. Ontario actually does there d2 better than most imported d2 but it still falls short of what d2 can do. And lacks behind simple steels like how they do there Aus8 and other imported steels like 12c27 etc.

Steve goes over alot of the ht aspects but Carrothers goes over even more and details the way he heat treated d2 and what's happening when he does what he does and why (threads on the forum here).

In anycase, Steve in the first video is correct in suggesting that imported d2 is just not idea for knives when there are better alternatives. If they were able to spend more time, temp control, and cryo and perfect the heat treatment on imported d2, it would cost more but be more viable option to these other budget steels.

Fake d2 is just bad marketing. Usually happens when a seller rebrands a knife and adds d2 to the side to sell it. Or various other reasons.

Ontario rat's are made in Taiwan. They are in average around 58hrc and use bohler k110. Alot of the Chinese market at least the larger well known brands also use bohler k110. It is d2, k110 is just bohlers name for d2.
 
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hogflats said:
What does all this boil down to? I have a rat 3 in D2, and a rat 1 in D2. ?
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It just means the hype about D2 from Asia isn't what we all thought it was for edge retention. And it's not worth the extra money over there Aus8 in the rat1 and 2.
 
Mo2 said:
That is not the case when it's bohlers d2 which a majority of major names use.
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agreed, that's why I specified china d2. However, it does bother me a bit that bohlers d2 (k110) also allows for a wide variance of vanadium... I know when someone tested it (a thread on bf somewhere) the amount came back around 0.6% or 0.7%
 
dirc said:
agreed, that's why I specified china d2. However, it does bother me a bit that bohlers d2 (k110) also allows for a wide variance of vanadium... I know when someone tested it (a thread on bf somewhere) the amount came back around 0.6% or 0.7%
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Up to .5% Vanadium in d2 is used to allow the steel to harden to over 60hrc level. And the rest allows it to form hard particles called carbides. Via Crucible.com

Per knife steel nerds the addition of Vanadium was made to improve toughness which it does by both refining the grain size and also the carbide structure. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/11/05/all-about-d2-steel-knives/


Vanadium is to low to really make it a main component for edge retention. Instead...

Its edge retention and what makes it harder to sharpen is due to large chromium carbides. Which range 65 to 70hrc.

The amount of Vanadium will dictate how the heat treatment will be done. Per Carothers...
a .8 vanadium will react differently than a 1.2. But, when the time and temp is dialed in it refines the grain (which is not a bad thing) and puts carbon into solution, reducing the soak time and temp for the second heat which I believe may be very significant in minimizing naturally occurring structures that play hell with edge stability such as RA that converts in temper rather than during the quench.
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Via https://xf.bladeforums.com/threads/any-experience-with-nathans-d2.1470902/#post-16929136

He also suggests using cryo after plate quench to reduce RA. He also mentions other major factors of proper temp control as there is only a small window for error and you also don't want to overheat it. Both of which are difficult to do in mass production.


Crucible d2 shows .8% Vanadium and k110 shows .75% Vanadium via there respective datasheets. A variety of other brands of d2 also differ in the amount of Vanadium. That's why it's important to know exactly what variety your heat treating because this will depend on how you do it.

I assume the xrf scan is showing different values because of various reasons. I'm not sure if when it's used to form carbides that it shows up lower because of that? I couldn't find much info on xrf data after heat treatment. Sometimes a datasheet shows an average percentage of material. The actual percentage in real life could differ from blank to blank. Or they may have used another variety of d2. It's possible that scanning different areas of the blade may show different variations of the carbides due to the distribution of them in the steel. I really don't know.

The fact to the matter is what the Vanadium does to the steel in the heat treatment and how the heat treatment is done (or not done for that matter).
 
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it's always seemed that only about 0.2% v is needed to help with grain size - that's why 420hc and many others have about that much

the use of 1% I realize doesn't add very much vanadium carbides, but surely it will add some, even if it's just the amount over 0.5% ... that's why I don't like when d2 doesn't actually use the full 1% ; )

this is also interesting reading
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart1.html
and
http://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/22/the-history-of-the-first-tool-steel/
and
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/04/16/the-development-of-first-tool-steels-book/
of course ; )
 
cbrstar said:
The D2 will be even better! Aus 8 is ok but D2 is amazing
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I have the exact same version AUS8 green from walmart. I think the lines are rather good looking. I know it fits my hand perfect. It has honestly replaced way more expensive folders for everyday carry. The only folder that gets as much carry is my Alox sak farmer.
 
I have no doubt the heat treat is not as good on a $35 knife as a knife costing 3 times as much.
But.
The concept that 12c27 or Ontario's AUS-8 or can outcut Ontario's D2 is just wrong. My R2-D2 will cut cut 80' more it's AUS-8 brother, both sharpened on a KME with a 600 diamond.

The Rat's in either steel are great work horse's, pick your steel and enjoy.

hGmQpSY.jpg
 
Dean51 said:
I have no doubt the heat treat is not as good on a $35 knife as a knife costing 3 times as much.
But.
The concept that 12c27 or Ontario's AUS-8 or can outcut Ontario's D2 is just wrong. My R2-D2 will cut cut 80' more it's AUS-8 brother, both sharpened on a KME with a 600 diamond.

The Rat's in either steel are great work horse's, pick your steel and enjoy.

hGmQpSY.jpg
Click to expand...

This guy uses kme too. Same results... Aus8 beats China d2. More testers have shown the same. He actually got a good d2 batch from Ontario. But because the ht is so narrow its hard to get consistent ht in every knife. So consider this, best case.

 
I only have 2 Chinese steels AUS-8 & D2 both from Ontario. My Ontario D2 results were much better than who ever the guy is, in the video got.
That would seem to indicate his results are consistently worse case scenario not best case.
Not doubting there are better heat treats on more expensive D2 knives. I have several D2 blades that out cut Ontario's D2 and make AUS-8 look like liner material.
Makes me wonder what he could do to get more reliable results. Actually I don't care.
These discussions never seem to end and I'm already bored with it. My part of this discussion is over.
 
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