The Supersteel? || Cronidur 30

[banjoman150]

Hey guys im a new member of this amazing Forum.
Im 23 years old and live in Germany.
I found this forum because i watched a YouTube Video of Skallagrim who used some
steel comparison charts that a user of this very Forum created

I recently stumbled upon a mysterious steel called
Cronidur 30
The steelnumber is 1.4108.
I dont know wether this steelnumber is a universally used System or not so bare with me

Its manufactured by german companies and is advertiesed as a heavyduty stainless steel for
cutting Tools, drills and other such parts. The Manufactures praise its exeptionally long "livespan" and very good
toughness for its hardness. Its also supposed to be extremely resiliant to corrosion.

All in all it sounds like a very good steel for blades.

Chemical composition:

C: 0,25-0,35
Cr: 14,0-16,0
Mo: 0,85-1,10
N: 0,30-0,40
Fe: the rest

its tensile strenth its <900 MPa, no more detailed informations

HRC varies from 55-60 depending on requirements

German source: http://hempel-metals.com/de/14108-Cronidur-30-Instrumente.htm

I want to buy a high Quality knife and therfor discovered this steel. One guy on a german knifeforum was full of praise but i wanted
to ask for more advice and your opinions / experience before i order THIS knife <--LINK

Here is the description of the knife to illustrate how its advertised to perform:

Cronidur 30, coming out of the space shuttle program, is one of the latest premium steels, and is exclusively available to Boker. It was developed for use in the aircraft and aerospace applications. It is superior in corrosion resistance to 400C stainless steel. Large carbides do not exist in this steel. Instead, there is a homogenous structure of finely dispersed carbon nitrides. RHCof 58, these blades will sharpen and hold an edge unlike any other steel. Blade length: 3 1/2-Inch. Closed length: 4 1/2-Inch. Weight: 3.5 oz.

Obviously i would order it on german Version of Amazon so the Price would be in Euros

Thanks in advance!

 

[RamZar]

Welcome to BF!

Seems to be an overly expensive steel:

"X30CrMoNi1-5-1 - Also Cronidur 30. Stainless steel, used in aero-space industry. Henckel uses it in their limited edition knives. For a while I didn't think much of Cronidur 30 steel, even though I knew it had Nitrogen in it. Later, one of the German knife guys pointed out that the amount of Nitrogen in the alloy is quite high 0.40% and more. So, overall the steel should exhibit properties of high carbon steel. Good wear resistance and relatively good toughness too. Still, 1000$+ price tag is very high for the knife of this steel. Bohler-Uddeholm Vanax 35 steel and Vanax 75 Steel, both have much higher Nitrogen content in them, 1.35% and 4.20% respectively and the knives out of those steels cost much less too. Plus Vanax series steels have Vanadium in them, which definitely helps with abrasive wear resistance. Ref - Cronidur 30 (X30CrMoNi1-5-1) Steel Composition."​

http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/misc/articles/kkchoser/kksteelp2.shtml#X30CRMONI151

 

[banjoman150]

Holy ... the 1000 Dollar pricetag is a Thing of the past.
The knife im looking for from well known Böker Company costs around 330 Dollars
Also thanks for the fast answer and the List of Steels

 

[Charr]

Still a little expensive when compared to some of the other steels that will outperform it greatly in terms of edge retention, but if you value the toughness and the corrosion resistance your blade more than just edge retention, this is a pretty good steel to go with honestly.
It will hold an edge very well, but that is in perspective of competition with steels like 440C. When it is compared to steels like M390, S90V, S110V, and, to take it to an even more extreme level, K390, 10V, 15V, or Vanadis 10, Cronidur 30 will not compare nearly as well. That is why most people will consider it to be fairly overpriced. They want edge retention, especially since corrosion is pretty simple to prevent in most steel if you know how to and take care of your knives.

There are a few other nitrogen stainless steels that are similar to this, but are able to achieve better edge retention without losing most of the corrosion resistance or other properties. Those steels include Vanax 35 (AKA just "Vanax") and Z-FiNit, though both of those steels are pretty rare right now, and only a small handful of companies and one or two custom markers are producing blades in them. Not only that, but honestly the people who are using it already produce very expensive knives for most people, so they aren't exactly easy to get in that regard either.

The main issue I see with Boker using this is that they have messed up heat treats in the past, or have used methods that are not optimal, and to my understanding, the heat treat on Cronidur 30 is quite tricky. I would give it some time and try and see how this blade actually turns out before getting one. See if you can find someone else who has one first.

 

[bodog]

Just saw this. Olamic is producing a knife in Z-Finit and Spyderco has a knife called the Tusk which has LC200N. Both are extremely similar to Cronidur 30. Spyderco has said they're going to release more knives with LC200N, including a possible mule team blade.

Spyderco is known for nailing their heat treats and doing things as good as can be given certain price points. Olamic is known for exceptional quality and customer service.

After having met the owners of both companies, Spyderco and Olamic, I'd recommend buying a knife from their companies far more than anything from Boker.

Sal, Spyderco, and Eugene, Olamic, will look you square in the eye and tell you that you'll have a hard time finding something better than what they produce at the same or better prices, and they mean it. And when they tell you that they'll bend over to fix any mistakes they make, they mean it. They'll then shake your hand and tell you they appreciate your business and theyll do anything within the realm of reason to keep you as a customer, and mean it.

One day I sent an inquiry to Eugene from Olamic about a specific knife model, this was before they made folding knives. He said he didn't have any in stock. I thanked him and moved on and bought a different knife. Some 4 or 5 months later I received an email from him out of the blue with a list of all the variations of that specific model they had in stock that Id mentioned. Not only did he keep my simple email, he referenced it months and months later and took the time to put pictures into another email and send to me, like I specifically mattered to him as a customer. I was supremely impressed with that simple display of personal customer service.

 

[RamZar]

One day I sent an inquiry to Eugene from Olamic about a specific knife model, this was before they made folding knives. He said he didn't have any in stock. I thanked him and moved on and bought a different knife. Some 4 or 5 months later I received an email from him out of the blue with a list of all the variations of that specific model they had in stock that Id mentioned. Not only did he keep my simple email, he referenced it months and months later and took the time to put pictures into another email and send to me, like I specifically mattered to him as a customer. I was supremely impressed with that simple display of personal customer service.

I had a similar great CS experience with Olamic. Eugene never forgot about me and what I wanted even after no contact from late October 2014 to late February 2015! He then showed me several Wayfarers that were right up my alley and I bought one. Incredible dedication, follow-through and customer service!

 

[banjoman150]

Thanks for your anwers.
Yes i do value toughness and corrosionresistance quite a bit.
Also i have no Special sharpening Equipment other than a onesided sharpening Stone.
I am planning to buy a two sided one so i can increase the sharpness i can get
So i am looking for a steel that is hard but not extremely hard as those kinds of steel would be quite
difficult to sharpen... i guess not that i have alot of experience with it its mainly just hearsay

 

[banjoman150]

Just so you know i just bought THIS knife [german LINK]

Bladematerial is N690 Co wich is as far as i understand a pretty good and already proven steel.
I just Kind of discovered this Cronidur 30 and believed it was something extremely Special so i wanted it to be "the best" steel
you can get ...N690 is much more affordable and with 58-60 HRC (as listed by Böker) it should have good edge Retention.
Thanks for all the help guys it was your arguments that made me consider other Steels as well ... saved me alot of Money

 

[RamZar]

Just so you know i just bought THIS knife [german LINK]

Bladematerial is N690 Co wich is as far as i understand a pretty good and already proven steel.
I just Kind of discovered this Cronidur 30 and believed it was something extremely Special so i wanted it to be "the best" steel
you can get ...N690 is much more affordable and with 58-60 HRC (as listed by Böker) it should have good edge Retention.
Thanks for all the help guys it was your arguments that made me consider other Steels as well ... saved me alot of Money

Congrats. Good choice on the Fox Pro-Hunter which is actually made by LionSteel. I have one with rosewood handle. Here's a picture from several months ago.

 

[banjoman150]

Yeah i really liked the shape and the wooden handles look very good too.
My friends prefer the tacticool type of knifes wich admitedly have their Appeal too but
i much prefer the draditional type of knifes that where primarily designed to be good Tools.
The weapon aspect real tactical knifes have isnt all that usefull to me

 

[d00mtr33]

As far as I know, cronidur 30, Z-finit and lc200n are pretty much the same steel just produced by different manufacturers. I haven't triec either yet but id like to since im really liking the 2 nitrogen steel knives that I have, Tilt with vanax 75 and Carson Tech Griffin in Nitrobe 77 (great stuff, acts like a stainless carbon steel). Cronidur should be a good steel but like you said it will be out matched wear resistance wise by most of the high vanadium steels. It should however take a very keen edge and have really good edge stability so it can be ground really thin and hold low angles without carbide chipout. If it has a good heat treat of course, im kinda iffy about Bokers heat treat but if its from the Getman brand it should be pretty good, they did a nice job on n690 and cpm 3v that I used.

Still a little expensive when compared to some of the other steels that will outperform it greatly in terms of edge retention, but if you value the toughness and the corrosion resistance your blade more than just edge retention, this is a pretty good steel to go with honestly.
It will hold an edge very well, but that is in perspective of competition with steels like 440C. When it is compared to steels like M390, S90V, S110V, and, to take it to an even more extreme level, K390, 10V, 15V, or Vanadis 10, Cronidur 30 will not compare nearly as well. That is why most people will consider it to be fairly overpriced. They want edge retention, especially since corrosion is pretty simple to prevent in most steel if you know how to and take care of your knives.

There are a few other nitrogen stainless steels that are similar to this, but are able to achieve better edge retention without losing most of the corrosion resistance or other properties. Those steels include Vanax 35 (AKA just "Vanax") and Z-FiNit, though both of those steels are pretty rare right now, and only a small handful of companies and one or two custom markers are producing blades in them. Not only that, but honestly the people who are using it already produce very expensive knives for most people, so they aren't exactly easy to get in that regard either.

The main issue I see with Boker using this is that they have messed up heat treats in the past, or have used methods that are not optimal, and to my understanding, the heat treat on Cronidur 30 is quite tricky. I would give it some time and try and see how this blade actually turns out before getting one. See if you can find someone else who has one first.

 

[marthinus]

It has been mentioned but Cronidur 30, ZFiNit and Lc200n are very similar with slight variations in chemistry.

Nitrobe-77 is IMO leading the pack but very rare and was developed for knives and blades in the food processing industry. Actually one of the few steels developed for blades rather than a steel adopted for blades.

The high price tag comes from the difficulty in producing a Nitrogen steel with high purity.

I wish more people would realize that edge retention does not equal wear resistance. Edge retention is the sum of edge stability, resistance against deformation through rolling and micro chipping, wear resistance and can be influenced by corrosion resistance at the edge. Not to mention catering your edge for your intended use.

We tend to get stuck at wear resistance as the be all end all. Where in fact it forms a small part of the equation.

Cronidur 30 is a fine steel if heat treated correctly. In fact it can achieve HRC above 60. I have a patent where they achieved 63HRC with a pretty straight forward heat treatment.

My 2 cents.

 

[d00mtr33]

I definitely agree that N77 is a great steel fir knives, I have a Carson Griffin in it and it has become my daily user (along with something else, I usually have 2 knives on me) and ivs been very happy with it. It takes the sharpest edge out of all the steels I tried, slightly better 4han vanax 75 and m390. Its easy to sharpen, pretty much rust proof and it can hold liw edge angles without damaging the edge. Im going to gave mine reground from it 0.023 to under 0.010 and put on a 10dps bevel anx it should be one heck of a cutter.

Marthinus, you have a Des Horn Imvubu in N77 right (iirc I saw it on Cliff's forum and YouTube)? How thinly are those ground? Its one of my grail knives that I hope to own one day. Thank you and take care.

It has been mentioned but Cronidur 30, ZFiNit and Lc200n are very similar with slight variations in chemistry.

Nitrobe-77 is IMO leading the pack but very rare and was developed for knives and blades in the food processing industry. Actually one of the few steels developed for blades rather than a steel adopted for blades.

The high price tag comes from the difficulty in producing a Nitrogen steel with high purity.

I wish more people would realize that edge retention does not equal wear resistance. Edge retention is the sum of edge stability, resistance against deformation through rolling and micro chipping, wear resistance and can be influenced by corrosion resistance at the edge. Not to mention catering your edge for your intended use.

We tend to get stuck at wear resistance as the be all end all. Where in fact it forms a small part of the equation.

Cronidur 30 is a fine steel if heat treated correctly. In fact it can achieve HRC above 60. I have a patent where they achieved 63HRC with a pretty straight forward heat treatment.

My 2 cents.

 

[marthinus]

Marthinus, you have a Des Horn Imvubu in N77 right (iirc I saw it on Cliff's forum and YouTube)? How thinly are those ground? Its one of my grail knives that I hope to own one day. Thank you and take care.

Des did a thicker grind (robust grind) on mine than what he usually does. That being said. It was still 0.3mm on average (0.0118") behind the edge. On his model #450 he does a fantastic super thin grind.

Of coarse going as thin as you want to (under 0.010) one is starting to make a tool specific to an application IMO and should not be lent out to people that do not understand the limitations of a thin piece of steel.