The Woodsman now going 420 SS

[Yonose]

Are you sure you got facts right there? Zknives lists Latrobe 420HC at 0.46% carbon.

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=420hc

420HC can be as high as .46% carbon, but not the batch Ontario is using for their bushcraft knives, which in post #322 of ask tooj thread he said was .31%, at the low end of carbon content for this steel, as far as I know. There is a range of carbon content a steel can have, and as the chief engineer for Ontario I assume he knows what he’s talking about. However, since Ontario lists the steel as 420SS maybe it’s a little low to be technically considered 420HC. He responded to my question about the woodsman with an answer for the bushcraft machete, so I assume that all the stainless bushcraft models use the same steel.

 

[buckfynn]

420HC can be as high as .46% carbon, but not the batch Ontario is using for their bushcraft knives, which in post #322 of ask tooj thread he said was .31%, at the low end of carbon content for this steel, as far as I know. There is a range of carbon content a steel can have, and as the chief engineer for Ontario I assume he knows what he’s talking about. However, since Ontario lists the steel as 420SS maybe it’s a little low to be technically considered 420HC. He responded to my question about the woodsman with an answer for the bushcraft machete, so I assume that all the stainless bushcraft models use the same steel.

Yeah I remember Toooj's #322 post and found it to be rather conflicting. If I recall correctly you were inquiring about the 420 stainless in the Woodsman and his reply was directed toward the Bushcraft machete. But I digress and shake my head, if indeed OKC is using 420 with only 0.3% carbon, I am not at all interested in what they have to offer.

Edit: Sounds like the steel OKC is using in the Woodsman should be classified as 420 mod steel which is roughly on par with 3Cr13MoV. Not impressive at all IMO.

 

[Yonose]

Yeah I remember Toooj's #322 post and found it to be rather conflicting. If I recall correctly you were inquiring about the 420 stainless in the Woodsman and his reply was directed toward the Bushcraft machete. But I digress and shake my head, if indeed OKC is using 420 with only 0.3% carbon, I am not at all interested in what they have to offer.

Edit: Sounds like the steel OKC is using in the Woodsman should be classified as 420 mod steel which is roughly on par with 3Cr13MoV. Not impressive at all IMO.

Yeah, I think .46% carbon can be hardened a lot higher than 57; but it isn’t as good a beater steel than the .3%, which I agree doesn’t sound like .3%. Don’t forget 3cr13 isn’t usually ht’d properly, since it’s not often done by a pro like Dan Maragni.
Edit: I think that since all the original bushcraft knives used 5160 there shouldn’t be any confusion—unless tooj states otherwise all the new 420ss blades in the bushcraft line would use the same steel. It would be unlike Ontario to use different grades of 420 for each knife; if he said the machete is made from .3% carbon stainless, we can assume that the woodsman is made from the same batch of steel.

 

[buckfynn]

Yeah, I think .46% carbon can be hardened a lot higher than 57; but it isn’t as good a beater steel than the .3%, which I agree doesn’t sound like .3%. Don’t forget 3cr13 isn’t usually ht’d properly, since it’s not often done by a pro like Dan Maragni.

At 0.3% there isn't enough carbon in the steel for decent edge retention be good or bad heat treatment.

 

[Yonose]

At 0.3% there isn't enough carbon in the steel for decent edge retention be good or bad heat treatment.

I agree that it won’t retain an edge as well as 5160. But a bad HT on 440c could leave a knife with carbon levels approaching that of 420. I’ve heard that a good HT (only if forging) can increase carbon levels, though this wouldn’t apply in the case of Ontario. Still, I doubt that Ontario would sell a truly terrible knife at this price, but I’m happy with 5160 so would not buy this one. My woodsman in 5160 can support my full weight(250lbs), I doubt that 420 would.

 

[Roguer]

So what level of "abuse" would one say for a 420 Woodsman. I know we probably need to know what sort of 420 SS it has, that would be nice to know.

I currently use my CS Maunder as a short "light/medium" machete for cutting brush and branches when I'm trout fishing and for trimming back brush and cutting and trimming sticks to cook the hard to hunt down elusive marshmallows and hot dog prey. Also for some reason its great at fish cleaning. I've limited my use as a "Batoner" and just been doing light to medium "brush chopping/Tree limb" chopping. Also I been using it as a kitchen knife, but it don't dice very goodly. I think this 420 Woodsman will do that better. But who's kidding I don't do much kitchen time myself.

I'm SPOILED when I started getting OKC Choppers or OKC knives that can CHOP for heavy use and abuse. Before I'd use a hatchet that really wasn't good for most purposes I used it for, so I guess I need advice on what level of abuse this 420 Woodsman can take. If its same steel for their machette then I guess the hacking and whacking levels I'm use to should be ok. Its the batoning stuff I'm wondering about, or just keep it for hacking and slashing brush and tree limbs and a big camp cutting blade.

 

[Yonose]

With .3% carbon, I’d guess this knife can take more abuse than aus-8, vg-10, or 12c27. Just don’t expect it to hold an edge very long. I’m gonna guess they’ll heat treat it so that the chromium goes where it’s supposed to and doesn’t make the blade more brittle, just more stainless.

 

[Roguer]

So mostly hacking, whacking, slashing limbs and brush and light to medium batoning and touch up a bit more when big critter cutting. But its less rustying in nature.

 

[Yonose]

It’s funny that we’re just trading one form of maintenance for another. More sharpening, less oiling, drying, ensuring a patina develops before rusting and pitting. The size of my hatchet has gotten a lot smaller since I started carrying large chopping knives, though my machete has stayed the same size.

 

[Roguer]

Meshach,

It is now being made in 420 HC.
We are trying to jump start that line and seeing if a lower price point will help.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
V.P. of Engineering
Ontario Knife Company

From TOOJ in Ask Tooj section.

420 HC it is! So guess I can be more obtusive abusive with the 420 HC version.

 

[Yonose]

From TOOJ in Ask Tooj section.

420 HC it is! So guess I can be more obtusive abusive with the 420 HC version.

I guess the .3% figure that he originally stated as 420HC was a mistake then.

 

[Roguer]

well that was for the machete I think.

 

[Roguer]

OOPS.

That was for a Bushcraft Machete question...

 

[buckfynn]

I guess the .3% figure that he originally stated as 420HC was a mistake then.

How so?

Yonose,

The Stainless in the Bushcraft machete is 420HC which has 0.31% carbon. That % can give is hardnesses up to HRc 55-57. The machete hardness, of course, is lower at 48-52HRc.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
V.P. of Engineering
Ontario Knife Company

Looks like Toooj just stated in his post above that their 420HC only has 0.31% carbon!?

 

[Yonose]

How so?



Looks like Toooj just stated in his post above that their 420HC only has 0.31% carbon!?

I was going on information that another member posted that 420hc contains about .45% carbon. Honestly, I don’t know if the label “420HC” is one that has strict carbon and other alloy content or not. .1% might not be a big difference when determining what can be called 440C, for example, because that is a roughly 10% difference. When labeling 420HC, a .15% difference is about 33% less than .46%, or 50% greater than .31%. I was corrected in another thread when I called .31% carbon containing steel as 420HC, so I assumed that the other guy’s statement was correct, especially since he had a link backing it up, but truthfully I don’t know.
I think it’s safe to assume that Ontario is using or intends to use the same steel in all the bushcraft models, since otherwise the cost saving initiative that tooj alluded to doesn’t make sense.
Since he stated a max of 57 rc hardness for the steel, he must not be referring to 420HC as used by Buck, since theirs can be hardened a lot higher.

 

[Roguer]

I think the confusion is Tooj is answering about the Bushcraft Machete that might be a different 420 for that blades hacking and whacking and chopping and lopping and thrashing and slashing jobs?

 

[Yonose]

I think the confusion is Tooj is answering about the Bushcraft Machete that might be a different 420 for that blades hacking and whacking and chopping and lopping and thrashing and slashing jobs?

He has implied several times that the bushcraft line will use the same steel. The Woodsman, the Bushcraft Machete, the utility, and one other knife are all in the same line and were all once made with 5160, so there’s no reason to believe that Ontario will use different steels for each model, especially ones that have the same “420 SS” etching. I don’t see any confusion over this subject, except the part about whether the carbon levels are “HC.” Tooj said they were.

 

[Roguer]

I got a 420 SS woodsman as well thanks to a sale, also picked up a RD Tanto for its companion heavy 5160 stuff to do.

What I'd like to know is the nature of the 420 SS so I have an idea how hard I can use and abuse it.

Editcus:

But I'm going to have to see if I can swap handles as the 420 SS one seems a bit better when wet. One thing about the handle being a "laminated" one it should be impervious to water thingy problems.

 

[Yonose]

I got a 420 SS woodsman as well thanks to a sale, also picked up a RD Tanto for its companion heavy 5160 stuff to do.

What I'd like to know is the nature of the 420 SS so I have an idea how hard I can use and abuse it.

Editcus:

But I'm going to have to see if I can swap handles as the 420 SS one seems a bit better when wet. One thing about the handle being a "laminated" one it should be impervious to water thingy problems.

You are the first one on this forum, so your experience is what the rest of us are waiting to read—so that we can judge whether or not it performs acceptably! I can only suggest that you start off slowly, and then build up to the heavier tasks. If it is hardened to the low 50’s it should bend before breaking, to test this without using a vise I don’t recommend using your full body weight to start out.

 

[Yonose]

How so?



Looks like Toooj just stated in his post above that their 420HC only has 0.31% carbon!?

It looks like the stated carbon content falls into the range of the 420 steels, but the addition of other alloys could make it perform closer to 420HC than the 420’s. They may have modded the batch a little, requesting a slitghly lower carbon content. Tooj might still consider it 420HC, but Ontario is etching it as 420ss.

Edit: if I am correct above, they’ve done something similar in the past, with their Bagwell collaboration bowies, and people were never able to figure out whether the steel was closer to 440a or 440c. I guess it doesn’t ultimately matter what a steel is called as long as it performs.