Thermal Cycling carbon steel in foil

[Natlek]

Call me crazy , but . . .
This blank is from ball bearing , normalizing and grain refining was done and LOOK at that scales ! Before normalization, the blank was heavy coated with ink corrector /if that is right name? / I used it for HT same steel and it works but obviously it not work on looooong process ?? I know that there are other protection to coat steel but I have not them and I am not sure that they 100% protect steel from decarburization on surface ...
NOW what if I wrap steel in 0.3mm thin sheet ? Not stainlees steel foil , ordinary one ? I mentioned 0.3mm just because that is what I have around me at moment .It is so easy to work with that soft like butter /Million dollar question is would it survive thermal cycling?? I guess a little thicker sheet like 0.4 or even 0.5 mm would work if 0.3mm is too thin ???
So , am I crazy or is there something here / What do you think ? What I am missing ?

Blank after thermo cyciling , under it is a that 0.3mm thin sheet and small blank ready to be wrapped and thermo cycled

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Correction fluid is also called "white out".

Aluminum foil melts at 660°C/1220°F, so it wouldn't work at normalization temps. Stainless foil is pretty cheap. You don't need high grade or thick foil at normalization temps. 304 foil will be fine.

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Correction fluid is also called "white out".

Aluminum foil melts at 660°C/1220°F, so it wouldn't work at normalization temps. Stainless foil is pretty cheap. You don't need high grade or thick foil at normalization temps. 304 foil will be fine.

^ Hes correct but if youre buying foil - it depends on how it comes obviously but - 321 is a higher temp foil that's good to about 2,000F. It seems you are doing low alloy steels, so that is just fine for the entire process, but I do recommend getting as cheap as possible for normalizing or use a decent anti-scale such as ATP-641 (it's far from the best, but it works and is easily sourced).


So, you expect me to actually stick my research out on here for free exactly after spending 131k to do this!?, and why do you beat around the fucking bush and just explain that titanium dioxide is *TYPICALLY* what is used. N Natlek , its whats in white out that makes it WHITE. Titanium dioxide is fine for the outside - you do not want to forge it into the billet (it's a contaminant like sulfur). Titanium can create carbide (TiχCχ), but it's sort of like very high manganese steels and specific to one thing. Titanium goes into a crystal formation that steel does not. It's called hexagonal close packed fyi. Go ahead and ban me Stacy, if that makes your kilt rise. I really have nothing against you, or any of you guys I do actually help people from here off of this website - I just yes have a little bit of time and I ain't your typical beta male in 2022. Don't like it - block me? I believe that is possible! Oh wait. There we go! Psychology.

Aha.

Someone is a civilian. Typical response from people like you until I shove an AR at your chest. Interesting how that attitude changes in about half a second... (I'm not knocking you Stacy, this is a generalization of people, no bs.)

 

[Natlek]

Correction fluid is also called "white out".

Aluminum foil melts at 660°C/1220°F, so it wouldn't work at normalization temps. Stainless foil is pretty cheap. You don't need high grade or thick foil at normalization temps. 304 foil will be fine.

Stacy , I am not talking about aluminium foil , I am talking about metal sheet from mild steel whatever you call that 0.3mm thick sheet ? This 0.3mm is from Foam core sandwich panel . Normalizing of 52100 I do on 930 Celsius .White out work for me for quenching /840 C/ but obviously don t work on 930 Celsius for half hour or I done something wrong which i doubt ?
Pretty cheap don t help me . Even if it is free also don t help me if I can t find that here in Macedonia .
Test is running right now , we will know after half hour , luckily my tube furnace heat fast to 930 Celsius

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Stacy , I am not talking about aluminium foil , I am talking about metal sheet from mild steel whatever you call that i0.3mm thick sheet ? Normalizing of 52100 I do on 930 Celsius .White out work for me for quenching /840 C/ but obviously don t work on 930 Celsius for half hour or I done something wrong which i doubt ?
Pretty cheap don t help me . Even if it is free also don t help me if I can t find that here in Macedonia .

Ah! Sorry, honestly N Natlek I did not know you were in Macedonia. True apologies even though I know you do not like me.

1. 930C for 52100 is a little high but normal for the forums. You'd want to. I wouldn't recommend going over about 900C/910 on 52100 (yes, even with the Cr stabilization) but you won't listen to me. Anti-scale is usually cheaper than HT foil just because, one is stainless steel one is I frankly don't know. I think there's carbon black in it.

"mild steel whatever you call that i0.3mm thick sheet" that should be just fine it's just a little thicker than typical HT foil that um. I can get a thickness hold on

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Ah! Sorry, honestly N Natlek I did not know you were in Macedonia. True apologies even though I know you do not like me.

1. 930C for 52100 is a little high but normal for the forums. You'd want to. I wouldn't recommend going over about 900C/910 on 52100 (yes, even with the Cr stabilization) but you won't listen to me. Anti-scale is usually cheaper than HT foil just because, one is stainless steel one is I frankly don't know. I think there's carbon black in it.

"mild steel whatever you call that i0.3mm thick sheet" that should be just fine it's just a little thicker than typical HT foil that um. I can get a thickness hold on

so what we use is 0.0501mm thick. 2 mils (0.002" inches) exaxtly. measured by a NIST calibrated Mitutoyo micrometer(not caliper.) may have to adjust soak times but if the alloy holds up to those temps - it works.

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Stacy , I am not talking about aluminium foil , I am talking about metal sheet from mild steel whatever you call that 0.3mm thick sheet ? This 0.3mm is from Foam core sandwich panel . Normalizing of 52100 I do on 930 Celsius .White out work for me for quenching /840 C/ but obviously don t work on 930 Celsius for half hour or I done something wrong which i doubt ?
Pretty cheap don t help me . Even if it is free also don t help me if I can t find that here in Macedonia .
Test is running right now , we will know after half hour , luckily my tube furnace heat fast to 930 Celsius

You are able to order from Amazon US there? Edit: ignore i looked you can't get the anti scale.

Look, I do have the time to try and help people. I won't lie, I don't post a LOT of stuff because it just is pointless but I did a brief look, and I can't find anything for Macedonia. I will probably be banned from this because..I'm unique lol. If you wish to contact me for any questions or help finding things (as in, I can get it in America and ship it to you), I can't say that. You can ask around on here aha but people do um. I do help people on here who contact me and I don't really offer to much.

I believe you know how to contact me, if not, email/text/call 24/7

jason@veraxknives.com
Phone: +14127268610 (messaging apps are fine, but I prefer Signal as it's the most secure of them)

DO NOT FEEL OBLIGATED TO CONTACT ME! I am NOT trying to advertise or any bullshit like that.

I'm going to continue looking for you, but I may be banned if I find something so if that happens, I will just make a new account and post the information for you. Or if you contact me, that will work a lot easier.

Yes, my name is sarcasm. I am a sarcastic person.*

 

[Natlek]

Ah! Sorry, honestly N Natlek I did not know you were in Macedonia. True apologies even though I know you do not like me.

1. 930C for 52100 is a little high but normal for the forums. You'd want to. I wouldn't recommend going over about 900C/910 on 52100 (yes, even with the Cr stabilization) but you won't listen to me. Anti-scale is usually cheaper than HT foil just because, one is stainless steel one is I frankly don't know. I think there's carbon black in it.

"mild steel whatever you call that i0.3mm thick sheet" that should be just fine it's just a little thicker than typical HT foil that um. I can get a thickness hold on

I think I know who you are , if you can to lower the tone a little would be nice . There is no need for that, the only thing you get for the way you communicate here is a ban ? Write what you have about the topic and let others decide how they will accept it ?

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Stainless Steel Heat treat foil

Stainless steel foil resistant up to 1200 °C for quenching under foil of stainless steel cutlery.

www.eurotechni.com

Im not sure if that would work but that is actual TOOL steel wrap, a little bit overkill and yeah you do. I'm not saying that I'm a saint - I hate the internet and 99.9% of people on it.

I have actual science on the topic akin to KSN. It's nothing different really besides my own confirmation and testing. That is why Larrin made a website, it just gets buried and the people who want the information (I started learning this in October), can get it from books if you really want to.

Still looking for cheaper options, and I agree with you that I take it a bit far sometimes but - there is another half of this story that you do not have... just saying, not making excuses. I'm a man I don't do excuses. My fault is my fault. Now why I don't care, is another topic.

More overkill - same stuff. I can't find anything but 309 (good to 2200Fish). 321 is cheaper..

https://macedonia.desertcart.com/products/37268197-type-309-stainless-steel-tool-wrap-heat-treat-foil-24-x-002-x-50

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Best I can find with a cursory look N Natlek , I apologize I usually have a bunch of sources but, this is the same stuff that I use and many others. It's not exactly cheap however, but this is 321 and should be cheaper.

Buy Type 321 Stainless Steel Tool Wrap | Heat Treat Foil 20" x .002" x 10' Online at desertcart Macedonia

Shop Type 321 Stainless Steel Tool Wrap | Heat Treat Foil 20" x .002" x 10' online at best prices at desertcart - the best international shopping platform in Macedonia. ✓FREE Delivery Across Macedonia. ✓EASY Returns & Exchange.

macedonia.desertcart.com

What's your budget?

Also, yes 321 is a little bit overkill also but 304 would work, I personally would recommend 321 or 316 due to something called intergranular corrosion. I'm not exactly sure how 304 would work but - it should work - it just would not be scientifically 'ideal' (I know i'm a perfectionist, I don't expect you to be because it is a waste of money heh)

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Best I can find with a cursory look N Natlek , I apologize I usually have a bunch of sources but, this is the same stuff that I use and many others. It's not exactly cheap however, but this is 321 and should be cheaper.

Buy Type 321 Stainless Steel Tool Wrap | Heat Treat Foil 20" x .002" x 10' Online at desertcart Macedonia

Shop Type 321 Stainless Steel Tool Wrap | Heat Treat Foil 20" x .002" x 10' online at best prices at desertcart - the best international shopping platform in Macedonia. ✓FREE Delivery Across Macedonia. ✓EASY Returns & Exchange.

macedonia.desertcart.com

What's your budget?

Also, yes 321 is a little bit overkill also but 304 would work, I personally would recommend 321 or 316 due to something called intergranular corrosion. I'm not exactly sure how 304 would work but - it should work - it just would not be scientifically 'ideal' (I know i'm a perfectionist, I don't expect you to be because it is a waste of money heh)

or 316L 317L*

Wish you the best of luck sir! (Yes, I actually do mean that even though you hate me ) Any questions I'm happy to answer here so that you do not have to contact me. I can make new accounts (not that I prefer to), I'll check the thread for posts.

 

[Natlek]

Most likely the gases from burning the paint inflated it like a balloon
Well 0.3mm sheet painted from both side survive and seems that steel survive also .I should have prepared another sample and raised the temperature to 1150 C !! But I think that would also pass without any problems . So where I am ? This sheet is so easy to cut/bend /seal and to form that sheath take one minute ? Safe also you can not cut fingers .What is not good ? WHY must be stainless ??

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

I think I know who you are , if you can to lower the tone a little would be nice . There is no need for that, the only thing you get for the way you communicate here is a ban ? Write what you have about the topic and let others decide how they will accept it ?

If I did that - then that would mean that I am being FAKE. I'm me, my people skills are just fine, my idiot skills need work! Ha (joke), but that is the honest reason why I do not change how I type. I'm me. I'm not an internet beta male.

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Most likely the gases from burning the paint inflated it like a balloon
Well 0.3mm sheet painted from both side survive and seems that steel survive also .I should have prepared another sample and raised the temperature to 1150 C !! But I think that would also pass without any problems . So where I am ? This sheet is so easy to cut/bend /seal and to form that sheath take one minute ? Safe also you can not cut fingers .What is not good ? WHY must be stainless ??

It doesn't. Now, the only issue you *may* run into, is reactions with unknown gases (please strip the paint first), but I can't think of anything in a low alloy that would be an actual metallurgical issue.

Mine inflate when I use anti-scale pieces that turn into an inert gas - not some unknown (well okay the ATP-641 product gases are unknown to me I do not have the equipment to test gases), but it's sure as shit not poly hydrocarbons and other nastiness you really DO want to avoid...

It looks fine to me? Mind breaking it in half?

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

Most likely the gases from burning the paint inflated it like a balloon
Well 0.3mm sheet painted from both side survive and seems that steel survive also .I should have prepared another sample and raised the temperature to 1150 C !! But I think that would also pass without any problems . So where I am ? This sheet is so easy to cut/bend /seal and to form that sheath take one minute ? Safe also you can not cut fingers .What is not good ? WHY must be stainless ??

Are you austenitizing 52100 at 1150C? (I know it was sarcasm I'm also being sarcastic; this is my personality man ) [at least I hope that was sarcasm! lol]

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

I have a question: Did you double fold the seals? If not, I would do that (I'm not sure if air got in or if the paint deposited carbon), and another step further you can take to block out oxygen is use "correction fluid" to "paint" the seals of the metal before folding, then let dry, and then HT. Sticking a piece of paper in it is pointless and can be detrimental as the paint can.

 

[Natlek]

It looks fine to me? Mind breaking it in half?

It is not heat treated , no quench .This is just test should 0.3mm sheet from mild steel survive half hour on 930 C .For 1150 C I mean to test that sheet if would survive stainless temperature for HT stainless steel .

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

WHY must be stainless ??

I'm sorry I should have answered this - I believe it's for storage and you NEED clean metal. That's probably why most of it is stainless.

 

[I_AM_SCIENCE]

It is not heat treated , no quench .This is just test should 0.3mm sheet from mild steel survive half hour on 930 C .For 1150 C I mean to test that sheet if would survive stainless temperature for HT stainless steel .

Ahhh my bad, normalized. Well. I'd try it? If I'm you, I'd just clean the paint, clean with acetone or ethanol/IPA, stick the mild steel in your furnace at 1150 and see what happens. If you are tight on cash - I may not stick a piece of metal in it at this point just to see if it actually forge welds

 

[Natlek]

I have a question: Did you double fold the seals? If not, I would do that (I'm not sure if air got in or if the paint deposited carbon), and another step further you can take to block out oxygen is use "correction fluid" to "paint" the seals of the metal before folding, then let dry, and then HT. Sticking a piece of paper in it is pointless and can be detrimental as the paint can.

No , just one fold hammered with wooden hammer .When I cut to open it make little puuuuf , so it is good sealed
Of course I will make double fold on real steel . This days I'm just straightening the ball bearing steel