Thermocouple mounting- Heat Treating Oven

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The thermocouple i got from Auberins has a 6" probe. I intend to insert it in the top center with the tip about and inch into the oven. I have seen them inserted from the back, with all of the probe but the tip in the oven covered with ceramic insulators. Does my idea of coming in from the top, with just the tip in the oven make sense? I intend to secure it with refractory cement.
 
I moved the thermocouple from the back to the top center of my oven a couple of years ago and it made a huge difference. With the thermocouple in the back, the temperature where I had my blade rack was about 200 deg F low. Now the temperature in that area is nuts on.

Makes sense -- In feedback control you want your sensor as close as possible to what you're trying to control.

Jesse

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
 
I think best place for thermocouple is as close as possible to knives to give exact temperature. That is usually not possible for several reasons. I have my one on back wall about 10 cm (4'') to the space. Ceramic thermocouple insulations will lower temperature few degree so I removed it and covered it by thin layer of Na2SiO3 (sodium silicate?). And I have My oven very good insulated. This modifications gives Me as accurate temperature as possible. I compared it with external digital thermometer and it differs about 2°C from front to back.
 
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I believe the center placement is the best choice; keep in mind its the very tip of the TC that "reads" the temperature inside the forge.

Fred
 
When You place thermocouple in center (I assume that is on the top of the oven) You read higher temperature as You have on Your blades. It could be compensated by offset on PID setup.
 
Lets talk a bit about TCs:

It is a common misconception that the top of the oven is a lot hotter than the bottom. This based on the old wives tale "Hot Air Rises." Actually, it isn't hot air that rises, but the colder and denser air that is heavier and displaces the warmer air ... which floats over the cold air. This causes convection. This is largely what causes thunderstorms and affects the comfort of large rooms at 70°F/20°C. Inside a fully soaked HT oven with a cubic foot or two of closed space at 1500°F/800°C, there is so little convection gradient that it is insignificant.

Thermocouples only read temperature at the bi-metal junction that makes the tip. This fused junction creates a tiny electric current that rises as the temperature rises. The readout displays this voltage as a temperature value. Readouts are rarely inaccurate, but the TC can vary. The rest of the leads are there to get in the oven as needed. The two leads should be insulated from each other, as touching will make the reading inaccurate. Ceramic sleeve insulators is the most common method. Covering the leads with these insulators will not affect the reading values as long as the last inch of the TC is exposed. The insulators will also add some rigidity to the leads, which get pretty pliable at HT oven temps.

Be aware that the TC, the TC mounting block, the wires from the TC to the PID, and plugs/sockets at the PID are all polarized and of specific metals. Using any other wires/connectors, or connecting any with the polarity wrong will give inaccurate readings. Ovens and forges need a type K TC, and all the connectors, wires, and plugs need to be type K.


The best place to get an average reading of the HT oven would be in the volume center of the oven. This would be half way between the top and bottom and half way between the front and back. This is usually done by placing the TC tip about two inches in the chamber at the center top. Once the oven reaches the set point and stabilizes, this will be quite accurate. In some ovens, the TC is placed coming in from the rear, and projects forward along the top 6-8"/15-20cm. As long as it is in the open area of the top and not close to any coils, this will be accurate, too.

Thermocouples will slowly oxidize and "burn out" over time. This makes them slowly become less accurate. Having a spare and changing it every couple years (based on regular use)is a good idea. If you suspect any problem with the HT oven, the first place to look is the TC. Remove it and clean all connections and re-install, or just change it.

Testing the accuracy of the PID and TC is a very good idea. There are many simple tests that will show you an exact temperature. Things like the melting point of rock salt or certain metals will give a pretty good test for temperatures in the HT range. There are test crayons called Tempil-Stix that are accurate for checking within 5-10°. That is normally close enough for HT use. Ceramic shops/suppliers sell little cones that melt at specific temperatures.

Putting a second TC in the oven and having it as a read-only unit is a very good way to keep an eye on things. The TC should be the same as the one connected to the controller, and the readout can be a PID that is not connected to anything but power. One TC should always be newer than the other. If they are showing a significant variance, it means you should check what is going on.

Final note - The TC should be as robust as possible. 8 gauge leads is going to be the best. 10 gauge will work fine in most electric ovens. A proper TC mounting block is a must. I would suggest changing the block when you change the TC. Two hole ceramic spacer beads are good to keep the leads apart, but only really needed where the TC will have a long exposure and a short between the leads may happen. Excess lead length outside the oven can be cut off with no effect on the TC reading.
 
Lets talk a bit about TCs:
. . .

You are wrong in several points.

My english language skills are very limited to contradict with You but I will try My best :|.

Point 1. I don't know why You wrote about old wives. Are You noticed someone here on BF? No one wrote about hot air rising but You. I'll try explain what I am thinking about (based on fysics of elementary school).
Heat is distributed from heater by radiation in all directions. This radiation continues beyond oven walls too. It is called heat transfer. Ovens are used in ordinary rooms where cold air comes to oven from one direction and hot air leaves oven by other direction. That makes walls uneven cooled and makes them uneven hot from place to place outside. Because they are NOT ideal insulators uneven cooling continues inside oven too, especially on poorely insulated ovens without additional insulation like from Evenheat or Paragon. Blades are placed on bottom of oven usually with tang to the front. Bottom wall is coolest because of cold air around oven (not inside). In addition they are cooled from front side too because there is no heater. Metal is very good heat conductor as is commonly known. It will try to equalize temperature from tip to tang that makes knife cooler. As You say "inside a HT with cubic foot or two" the tang is very close to the front door except You are making very small knives or folder blades. That is reason why is better place for TC close to blade and of course it all depends on oven conditions. You'll be right if Your oven will be placed in vacuum and blades are in center of inside space of oven not touching anything.

Point 2. Thermocouples can be other types like N,R,S and B. They are very accurate but very expensive too so usually thermocouple of type K is used (because of money).

Point 3. Difference 5-10°C may vary in hardness on blade at about 1-2 Rc for SS where temperature need to be very accurate.

Point 4. Robust TC need more time to adapt to the temperature so this makes things slightly overheated especially when You do ramp to the temperature. It can overheat blade from 30-100°C depending on oven condition for a while. Best is use as thin TC as possible that is fast to adapt to the temperature. It can be corrected by limit to the ramp, 20°/min for example (only if regulator have R&S function). And You are right, it need TC to be often changed.

As I wrote before My language skills are not at level that allows me contradict with You so You can disagree with Me.
 
We are not disagreeing. It is mostly a language barrier.

An "old wives tale" is a phrase that means an old story everyone repeats by has no real basis in fact. People regularly think the top of the kiln is much hotter than the bottom. That is what I was referring to as and "old wives tale."

The question was about TCs and their placement. Of course, there is much more to designing and operating a HT oven.


Heat travels by radiation, but how that radiation affects the inside of a kiln is a matter of many things. The rate of absorption of the heat by the refractory as well as the blade, and distance from the blade to the heat source are critical.

Thicker TC gauge will make for a slower response time, which can equal more accurate final temperatures once the oven is soaked and at pre-heat temperature.

I mentioned type K TC because it is the most common and affordable type. It is very unlikely that a commercial HT oven will ever come with another type.

My mention of 5-10° range was in checking that your TC is working properly. That would be +/- to +/- 2.5 degrees to +/- 5 degrees. If the TC reads within that range, you can assume it is not defective. Only the very best HT ovens and their controllers have a accuracy of only +/- 5° at HT temps.
A +/- 1% derivation ( average) at 1950° is +/- 19.5 °
A 0.3% derivation ( very accurate) would be +/- 5.8°
And a 0.1% accuracy ( laboratory grade) would be +/- 2° .
 
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