They are all using a steel wrong I swear.

D

Dannofree

Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
2
I've got a thing for sharpening. I've used most the systems out there and use what I like. I know how to sharpen, forming a burr, bla bla bla. Micro-serrations. All that stuff. One part or method I don't get is using a steel, like you get with a kitchen knife block set. I know it's not sharpening in the sense that it doesn't remove metal but I just don't get how it works within what I know about edge/sharpening mechanics.

How they are used seems wrong to me.

The same basic motion used to sharpen a knife on a ceramic stick sharpener is used by chefs with a steel to realign micro serrations. Why does something that we used to form a burr magically make a burr straight with the same motion on a grooved stick they use. How is the grooved stick not grabbing the micro serrations and bending them further?

How the hell does a steel work? You watch any of the YouTube vids of how to use one and it just didn't make any sense. How does running the blade away from you on a grooved stick knock micro serrations straight? I realize most of these guys don't know shit from a snow cone when it comes to knives. Half The dudes saying a ceramic steel or diamond one does the same thing and doesn't remove metal.

Does it fold over any micro serrations to the point where they break off and form a knew edge, sharper then the rolled one but nastier then a good sharpening?

I've only ever sharpened my kitchen knives. High quality, Right knife for the job on a good cutting board and I've never had to sharpen too often.
 
Welcome to Bladeforums I'm sure someone will answer you shortly, but a "Steel" works as I'm told by pushing the burr back over.
 
John_B said:
Welcome to Bladeforums I'm sure someone will answer you shortly, but a "Steel" works as I'm told by pushing the burr back over.
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In short yes. But more like it aligns the edge straight when used properly.

Good for soft steels, not so great for harder steels. I have a glass rod myself, which has a matte texture and would lightly sharpen the edge up. But I often find it easier to just take out my Kalamazoo and touch up my edges on the power strop belt I loaded with Mother's Mag & Aluminum Polish:thumbup:.
 
The grooved steel work like a fine file. It can and will remove steel, lay in a new scratch pattern, raise and (mostly) remove a burr. It is fast and a relatively "clean" method so works well in a kitchen or meat plant atmosphere. As mentioned it works best on lower RC steels, and most Western kitchen cutlery falls in the low 50s high 40 RC. Not as abrasive as a stone, so good deburring usually requires the edge to be approached at a higher angle at least till the burr is gone.

The smooth ones work by using plastic deformation and a microbevel to refine the edge and for maintenance for a few cycles after which the steel is too drawn out and all you'll get is a wire/burr. If the edge is really dull the smooth ones won't do anything. It also induces some work hardening so the RC at the edge becomes higher and edge retention is improved on lower RC steel.

Depending on angle, amount of force, number of passes, this method can be used even on higher carbide and high RC steel though technically becomes increasingly difficult to manage. Industrially, burnishing has been successfully used on steels into the low 60s RC to make smoother and higher load bearing surface, though seems to work most reliably on softer steel.


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ok-at-steeling?highlight=quick+close+steeling
 
I've read that zknives article before.

Maybe I'm just thinking too small. Is it about larger edge inclusions? Not really burr/micro-serration reforming as much as larger edge reshaping? Would make sense, why it's done so often. Once an edge gets too deformed steeling won't do anything?

I can see it working like a file, that's what I assumed it did all along. rough in the grand scheme of things.

Ok. So on my moderate hardness (58) German zwilling pro knives a steel is so-so.

Doesn't matter anyways, I treat them well and sharpen when needed. I'm a foody that cooks a few times a week not a prep cook.
 
Dannofree said:
I've read that zknives article before.

Maybe I'm just thinking too small. Is it about larger edge inclusions? Not really burr/micro-serration reforming as much as larger edge reshaping? Would make sense, why it's done so often. Once an edge gets too deformed steeling won't do anything?

I can see it working like a file, that's what I assumed it did all along. rough in the grand scheme of things.

Ok. So on my moderate hardness (58) German zwilling pro knives a steel is so-so.

Doesn't matter anyways, I treat them well and sharpen when needed. I'm a foody that cooks a few times a week not a prep cook.
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There are certainly folk who know more about it than me, but I have used a grooved and smooth steel in combination to maintain kitchen knives for a number of years. Grooved one when the smooth no longer restores the edge, the smooth one works a lot like a the UF rods on a Sharpmaker to apply a microbevel following the grooved one.

Once the edge has been hit with the smooth steel too many times, it literally is drawn out into a wire edge that won't hold up for long. The steel is fatigued and will begin to undergo brittle failure. If you work in a meat packing operation, that's not really a problem. The wire is wicked sharp and lasts long enough to do some work. When it fails the restoration process is fast and clean. When the smooth no longer works is time to hit a medium stone or grooved steel, but in the meantime a lot of work has been done with an edge sharp enough to do the job with minimum fatigue to the worker. Most kitchen workers could care less if they're cutting with a wire edge as long as it cuts well and comes back fast when it doesn't - you won't see a Chef with a loupe checking for burrs before slicing the roast beef.

From a more knifenut perspective, the grooved steel has all the limitations that a file has on heat treated steel. Is not as abrasive as a stone, so has trouble cleanly removing the burr or working steels at higher Rockwell values. Folk that use a file on their machetes can attest to the quality of edge that can be whipped up though. Smooth steeling begins to fail once the edge has had all of its irregularities smoothed out. Up to that point the steel isn't being drawn out. Likewise if you polish an edge up to 6k-8k with a fine stone or strop you won't see much change when steeling. Used following a medium to medium-fine finish, the edge still has highs and lows that can be mushed into a finer edge. The real value in it as I see is the ability to take a medium finished edge and turn it into a hair whittling or very near in one super fast step. Limitations to be sure, but generally it doesn't straighten out an edge or stand up microteeth - once an edge rolls enough to stop cutting, straightening it out usually has it flaking off or otherwise still being useless. Running a smooth steel over microteeth has the effect of compressing them into a finer edge and actually smoothing them right out of existence.
 
I've found that a smooth steel works well on low/mid-grade stainless steels up to RC 58* or so, especially when immediately following honing/sharpening on something like a coarse diamond hone (325-mesh). The somewhat ragged edge left by a coarse diamond hone on simpler steels like these can be taken up a notch or two in wicked-toothy slicing sharpness on such blades, using a smooth (polished) steel. I'm sure most of it is due to more straightly aligning the newly-honed teeth in the edge, as opposed to removing much or any metal (besides very loosely attached bits of burrs being scrubbed off). As with any sharpening, the steel is best used with a very light touch to just straighten/align the edge without bending it completely over in the other direction, and NOT like the 'fencing' or 'sword fighting' style most-often seen used by cooks/chefs on TV; nothing very good can come of that.

* - One knife I liked this on, was a Buck folder in their 420HC at ~ HRC 57-59. Also worked very well on Victorinox's blades at mid-50s HRC, and Case's 420HC in a similar hardness range (mid-high 50s HRC).


David
 
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Personally, I prefer a smooth borocilicate glass rod, but smooth steel works well too.

If you REALLY care about using it correctly, watch 2-3 YouTube videos about butcher's cutting up an entire carcase (there are several for beef and pork available,) rather than a knife sharpener or a cooking show. You will see any and ALL of these butchers using their steel after EVERY THREE TO FOUR CUTS, not three to four hours of use. If you don't have a smooth steel or glass, use the rim of a Pyrex baking dish or Pyrex measuring cup. Glass made for baking, regardless of the brand, is borocilicate glass. (It's actually a cheaper grade of glass than that used for drinking glasses, rather than something special.) Try it. You'll like it.


Stitchawl
 
stitchawl said:
You will see any and ALL of these butchers using their steel after EVERY THREE TO FOUR CUTS, not three to four hours of use.
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Do they cut a lot of bone or something?

I generally find that my knives don't run into rolling/chipping unless bone is nicked in some way, and even then it'll still keep cutting afterwards. Post thanksgiving when my brother was carving the turkey:thumbup:. So long as you take care to avoid the bone, I figure any well sharpened edge would be good for at least a week of straight cutting. I honestly don't even do any touchup outside of my belt sander because of this.
 
In a dozen meat markets, I'll see a dozen Norton Tri-Hone 313's. They'll all have at least one fine steel. Which they don't know how to use and mostly are slapping the blade against it. Of all these only one has a leather strop and it's a nice Russian barbers strop which I've used on several occasions. A steel if done right I've noticed will shape up a blade so it can cut one more setting. (series of cuts) Perhaps like trim another whole brisket. Then it needs some work on a stone. Meat cutters are always in a hurry and rarely stop for this. Mostly just push the blade on and make it to the end of their shift. Then sharpen as they don't have stones at home. I've thought slurry applied to a smooth or rough cut pine board would be the better item to have access to in a meat market. It's simple, inexpensive and can be thrown around and not break. Plus, it will extend the knife 1-2 times between sharpenings. DM
 
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Noctis3880 said:
Do they cut a lot of bone or something?

I generally find that my knives don't run into rolling/chipping unless bone is nicked in some way, and even then it'll still keep cutting afterwards. Post thanksgiving when my brother was carving the turkey:thumbup:. So long as you take care to avoid the bone, I figure any well sharpened edge would be good for at least a week of straight cutting. I honestly don't even do any touchup outside of my belt sander because of this.
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Watch a few of the videos and see for yourself. I spent an hour looking a different YouTube 'butchering' videos, and with just one or two exceptions, ALL of the professional butchers steeled their knives every few cuts. I have to think that these guys, to whom speed and accuracy mean the difference between profit or loss, have learned the best way to get the job done. I discovered the same thing about stropping, paying attention to the behavior of barbers, professionals who require an edge so keen that their customers will return for another comfortable shave.

If you want professional results, model your behavior after professionals... not hobbyists.


Stitchawl
 
Professionals have the intent on getting the job done and time is money and most will settle for what works, but there will be those who take it an extra mile and so will some hobbyists. This is where research comes into play to make sure you get the type of results you want.
 
I wouldn't waste my time steeling a blade every few cuts. I'd First put a decent edge on it so it lasted all day. Then if it was struggling from stuff I was cutting I'd strop it during my lunch hour. DM
 
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I have to guess that for the most part the pros are using low RC cutlery - low 50 or high 40s. And then they probably sacrifice accuracy for speed in terms of whacking off of bone or plowing through joints instead of easing through if a person was doing it for themself and not timed. So the foreman isn't on you about the amount left on the bone or how long you're taking.

The edge could be a full blown wire or massive burr as long as it keeps cutting. So when that burr turns on a bone etc and edge won't slice through the next cut, a couple passes on the steel and back at it.

I have to trust DM on this one as I've never seen exactly how line work plays out in the packing plant/slaughter house. The pace must be frenetic, based on the profession having high injury and repetitive use injury numbers.

All of this adds up to the industrial use vs what the method is capable of under more controlled circumstances.
 
You're right on these points. A processing plant is a fast pace place. Just walking thru it you can get hurt, run over by a forklift, a side of beef fall on you, get locked in a cooler, ect.. Many meat cutters use Victorinox knives, which sharpen easy. And seem to be around 54RC but will still last two - four days when sharpened correctly and can be sharpened in 7-10 minutes. I've watched these guys break beef and they are very fast and accurate. When they separate the stifle and ball joints they'll make 3 swipes and the leg is free. When you do this 20-30 times a day you get real good at it. I've eaten lunch with these guys and many do sharpen 2-3 knives during their lunch hour. All using a Norton 313 Tri-Hone w/ oil. So, I think there is much truth to what you're saying: they nick a bone or two each hour and then end up steeling the blade (a lot ) to make it thru their shift. It's hard fast pace work. Plus, a breaking blade isn't cheap. They'll run 40$ and you may get 1-2 years out of it. That's just that One knife. They usually have 3. DM
 
Another thing to consider is that when you are doing lots of heavy butcher work, knives become a consumable to a degree. Because speed is the most important factor, blades get worn down much faster than anywhere else. Because of this, you are going to see cheaper knives, lower Rc numbers, which means the steel can burnish much more effectively. A high Rc Tool steel won't burnish as easily, but would take a finer edge from a strop and compound because of the nature of the steel. I think you'll also find a wide range of skill level. Some guys can keep a very functional edge on a blade with just a burnishing steel, while others just flash the steel around for appearances sake and just power through. From a distance it would also be hard to know if they were using a burnishing steel, or a round diamond rod, which would make a huge difference in the outcome.
 
True. This also emphasizes the fact that many of us here way under use our knives and over nit pick little details. Many men making a living using a knife purchases a lower quality product than so many of us here. I find this humorous. DM
 
One thing the ones that are good don't sacrifice accuracy for speed and every cut is for maximum effect.The steel may not be the best but the blade shape and handle design are.You cut for 8 or 10 hours you will appreciate the handles.I'am not a butcher but I had a uncle that was for over fifty years and several friends that own shops I'm talking shop that do the killing to the finish.The skill that some of them posess is amazing.Ive cut more than a little bit of meat but I'm slow compared to them.It would do a lot of people some good to see some of them at work.The difference between a tool and a toy.And someone that knows how to use it
 
Exactly, that's what I was eluding to in the post above yours. Your uncle probably knew how to steel his knife. I'm not saying that is something that takes 50 years to learn. What I'm saying is his experience with a knife put him in a different ball park than most of us here. I'm like you,-- I can get the quarters separated and the cuts dissected without much thinking. But at the end of the day a meat cutter like your uncle was miles ahead of me. DM
 
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