Thoughts About "Super Steels" Retention, and Other Qualities?

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Onryou

Joined
May 18, 2016
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Hi everyone, since this is my first post apologies in advance if similar or exact same topic had been posted before. :D

Moving on to my question: I would like to know your thoughts and experience on knives with blade steels that according to some source defined as "Super Steels", higher end, ultra premium grade ones, etc. Testimonials regarding the edge retention and toughness / resistance to wear characteristics. Blade retention and toughness / resilience to wear are what I found to be crucial to me on a knife.

*This source: knifeinformer.com/discovering-the-best-knife-steel/

Like...for example: how actually "different" is the blade retention and toughness on a Aus 8 knife compared to M4 one?

*My actual using experience so far are with knives that uses: 8crmov3, 440C, Aus 8, San Mai III. I've found that some Aus 8 holds edge longer than 8crmov3 and so on after prolonged use. Although other aspects such as; the materials that are being cut, blade sharpening techniques, etc could determine how well a knife blade retention as well. Since I never handled any other blade material than the mentioned above I wonder abt how "different" the difference is :confused:

*For my usage profile so far an EDC folder (fixed on some days) had been used against: packaging wrappers with elements of cardboard, plastic, and papers, zip tie, thin metal wires, opening food can, etc.

So yeah, looking forward to hear from anyone around here about this. Kindly thank you for the given time and attention.

Cheers :)
 
In the circumstances you're describing, and assuming good heat treats and similar geometry, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect M4 to hold an edge 3-4 times longer than AUS-8. More specifically, to make 3-4 times as many cuts before loosing a functional, working edge.

Now if you want to maintain an incredibly sharp, hair popping edge, my personal experience is that super steels offer little to no advantage in that.

As for toughness, I have to admit that in folding knives I've literally never noticed any particular difference that toughness makes. I've used what would be considered fairly brittle ZDP-189 and everything up to 3V and haven't had any issues with edges chipping out or breaking with any of those steels. Given that, in my folders I'll happily prioritize edge retention (or other properties, depending) over toughness.
 
Onryou said:
*For my usage profile so far an EDC folder (fixed on some days) had been used against: packaging wrappers with elements of cardboard, plastic, and papers, zip tie, thin metal wires, opening food can, etc.

So yeah, looking forward to hear from anyone around here about this. Kindly thank you for the given time and attention.

Cheers :)
Click to expand...

I'm a plumbing contractor and use my knife for all sorts of stuff but I'd never attack metal with it and expect it to keep an edge.

For all the other stuff, yeah so called super steels will in fact keep a working edge longer. I used a Leek (12c28N?) for many years before the bug bit me and then moved up to S30V and that was a nice upgrade in edge retention. I gave one of my guys a knife with 8cr and he uses the heck out of it and it loses its working edge rather quick. I now have knives in M390, 20CV, S35VN, 204P, 154CM and just ordered one in S90V. Can't make much of a comparison between them since they are all from different manufacturers and have different blade profiles/thickness/grinds/etc., but they all keep a working edge longer than 8cr or 12c and are plenty tough. I did get a bit of minor edge chipping with the factory edge on some of these. I think 20cv chipped the easiest on the factory edge but once I sharpened them they are holding up better. That could be from the factory overheating the edge on the sharpening or it could just be coincidence. BTW, none of this is empirical data given all the variables I have mentioned but just my observation over a couple of years.

For what I do and since I don't cut a lot of cardboard I have found 154CM to be an excellent steel. I have a BM and a Buck in that steel and really enjoy them when it's their turn to work. Right now I'm on a M390 kick using my most recent acquisition Viper Orso on most days and my M390 Knockout for days when I know I'm going to be in the dirt. I haven't had a lot of experience with it but the short time I have used M390 it has been proving to be a little bit better than all the others. And just for kicks I ordered the new Ritter so that'll be another M390 blade to put to the test.

But don't take my word on this. Have some fun, live a little, try something new, and draw your own conclusion!
 
Welcome to the forum.

If you're looking for both excellent wear resistance and toughness (resistance to breaking and chipping), you'll have to compromise. Vanadis 4 Extra is a tough steel with pretty good wear resistance.

You might enjoy Ankerson's thread on testing steels/knives for wear resistance.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ed-on-edge-retention-cutting-5-8-rope.793481/

You'll see a huge difference in different steels as heat treated by the maker. Edge geometry also plays a big role.
 
hectorsn said:
I'd never attack metal with it and expect it to keep an edge.
Click to expand...
No problem with the right heat treat and edge geometry:

I modded and have this knife to hand on work days just for lightly shaving and deburing mild steel and aluminum parts (where I can't get a sheet metal deburing tool to do the job). This knife is a Cold Steel Ti Lite six in CTS-XHP.
XHP is a high alloy stainless steel. I guess it is a super steel. It is just really practical steel to put in a knife. I have NEVER chipped this blade doing this and rarely have to sharpen it. The edge is a fairly wide geometry; I have never measured it but is pretty close to the stock, from the factory edge geometry. (a metal file is just a hunk of appropriately heat treated steel with the appropriate edge geometry on the many edges)
IMG_3657.jpg

In the same breath I will say :
I would never in my wildest fantasies consider trying the same thing with a ZDP-189 blade.
I simply love ZDP-189 ! ! !
DO NOT CUT WIRE TIES with ZDP-189 unless you enjoy chipped edges and want to convert your ZDP-189 to a serrated edge slowly over time.

Oddly enough and counter intuitively, my very best wire tie cutter, even very big wire ties, is a little old Swiss Army knife with a very narrow reprofiled edge geometry. It just slips through them with no edge deformation or rolling. Who knew ! I reprofiled it for precision slicing of soft rubber products. I put oil on the blade and the rubber and boy howdy !
The little knife in this set of three that are on my belt any time I am working.
IMG_2671.jpg

By the way stop saying "Blade retention". I assume you mean edge retention but some how have slipped down some slippery slope into a description of how well the blade is being held closed by the system in the knife designed for that purpose (ball detent, cam on the axis lock, lobe on the blade tang of a slip joint etc., etc., etc).

As far as resistance to side loading which is key in my requirements of super steel knives I find M4 to be my favorite partly because of the superior polished edge this steel can support as apposed to my least favorite being S110V which not only distorts fairly quickly from this side loading but can't support a polished shavey, carvy, edge to save it's life. Sure S110V cuts rope for ever using a balanced linear sawing motion but start putting side loading on it in a carving motion, and I'm talking carving materials that are more clingy and abrasive than wood and the M4 makes most everything else look silly in short order and then goes on to cut that material a few times a day for weeks without sharpening.

M4 !
Every thing else is just a wannabe in my view.
I love my M4 knives so much I haven't even attempted the metal deburing thing with them.
I would be more inclined to use one of my 3V knives but they are fixed blades so rather out side this discussion though the CTS-XHP folder does the job flawlessly so that is where I stopped looking at alloys for this purpose.

Other qualities ?
I don't need diamonds to sharpen or touch up my M4 ! ! ! !
Sure if I were reprofiling and taking off a significant amount of the blade then I would go for extra coarse diamond.
Thank goodness I can sharpen my M4 with Shapton Glass stones and have had just the most astonishing and gratifying experiences touching up this world beater steel with Spyderco ceramic Triangle Rods. We are talking tree topping after a couple weeks of cutting difficult punishing and abrasive hard rubber products that the S110V couldn't cope with as well and most defiantly the S110V would require diamond abrasive for even a simple touch up. Sure the S110V could be made to seem sharp with other sharpening media but the edge would not be nearly as durable as an edge in the same steel off diamonds.

Aus8 ?
Yes it is a cute little steel. Good for opening letters and box tape. Even some soft wood carving etc.
From my repeated experience with many knives in that alloy it will not last one day of rubber trimming that I talk about above let alone a week or more between sharpenings.

My preference in a similar steel is VG-10 which I find to be a much more durable alloy though no where in the same league with CTS-XHP and not even in the same galaxy with M4.
 
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hectorsn said:
Right now I'm on a M390 kick using my most recent acquisition Viper Orso on most days and my M390 Knockout for days when I know I'm going to be in the dirt. I haven't had a lot of experience with it but the short time I have used M390 it has been proving to be a little bit better than all the others. And just for kicks I ordered the new Ritter so that'll be another M390 blade to put to the test.
Click to expand...

In my view that is one sweet kick to be on and can make a nice home base ! ! !
Ritter and M390 = a most excellent experience in deed ! ! !
For example look at this photo as a "graph" of cutting performance specifically cutting the difficult hard rubber products. The Ritter Griptillian in M390 is on top and doing it to the S110V. Sorry if that offends but there was just no contest.
IMG_3743_2.jpg
 
Wowbagger Wowbagger : Have you ever tried a knife made from INFI for cutting rubber ?
Years ago a US knifemaker told me in person that he used to use the steel type that would later become known as INFI for making industrial knives for cutting rubber as well as for tactical knives of his own design.
When that steel became no longer available to him he switched to A8 (iirc a modified version)
 
kwackster said:
Wowbagger Wowbagger : Have you ever tried a knife made from INFI for cutting rubber ?
Years ago a US knifemaker told me in person that he used to use the steel type that would later become known as INFI for making industrial knives for cutting rubber as well as for tactical knives of his own design.
When that steel became no longer available to him he switched to A8 (iirc a modified version)
Click to expand...
No I am embarrassed to say I haven't tried INFI. I am so new at this knife thing though not to edge tools in general. Hahaha I just this year got my first 154CM.
Is A8 the same as AUS 8 ?

The hard rubber I trim all the time is, in fact, a material designed to be highly abrasion resistant and heat from friction tolerant so it is more abrasive than plain rubber.

Interesting suggestion though. What is a good slicer that comes in INFI that is similar to . . . say . . . a Para 2 or a Rat 1 ?
Or I'm thinking this steel is most often in fixed blades, is that right ?
For a fixed blade a good size would be similar to a Pendleton Hunter Mini
(For me in a fixed the thinner the better for my uses)
 
Wowbagger said:
No I am embarrassed to say I haven't tried INFI. I am so new at this knife thing though not to edge tools in general. Hahaha I just this year got my first 154CM.
Is A8 the same as AUS 8 ?

The hard rubber I trim all the time is, in fact, a material designed to be highly abrasion resistant and heat from friction tolerant so it is more abrasive than plain rubber.

Interesting suggestion though. What is a good slicer that comes in INFI that is similar to . . . say . . . a Para 2 or a Rat 1 ?
Or I'm thinking this steel is most often in fixed blades, is that right ?
For a fixed blade a good size would be similar to a Pendleton Hunter Mini
(For me in a fixed the thinner the better for my uses)
Click to expand...
Nah, A8 is a very, very tough air hardening tool steel. Not much like AUS 8 at all.
 
AUS8A is a stainless steel made in Japan by Aichi. It has a composition very close to AEBL, with slightly higher carbon and chromium. You find it in Cold Steel knives. Prior to the San Mai change to VG1, they used AUS8A as the core steel. It's very fine grain, very tough for a stainless steel.
A8 and A8(mod) are alloy carbon steels with medium chromium content. There was talk some time back that INFI was basically A8/A8(mod), but I don't think Jerry Busse took to that kindly. The carbon content is at the eutecoit point, so even with the chromium content, it's grain structure is also very fine, making it also very tough.

Victorinox uses 1.4110 steel in their knives. It is also a very simple, but very tough stainless steel. Carbon ~.5%, Chromium~14%, Silicon ~1%. Very good edge stability.
 
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Insipid Moniker said:
In the circumstances you're describing, and assuming good heat treats and similar geometry, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect M4 to hold an edge 3-4 times longer than AUS-8. More specifically, to make 3-4 times as many cuts before loosing a functional, working edge.

Now if you want to maintain an incredibly sharp, hair popping edge, my personal experience is that super steels offer little to no advantage in that.

As for toughness, I have to admit that in folding knives I've literally never noticed any particular difference that toughness makes. I've used what would be considered fairly brittle ZDP-189 and everything up to 3V and haven't had any issues with edges chipping out or breaking with any of those steels. Given that, in my folders I'll happily prioritize edge retention (or other properties, depending) over toughness.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, forgot to mention that assuming the blade steel have proper heat treatment and geometry and not just some "random" steel of unknown origin for the manufacturer and making process altogether. Thanks for pointing it out Moniker :)

I'm noting that in case for edge retention superiority, Super Steels while some yes could be superior than some its all back again depending on many factors which I'm glad to see from your insights. Never thought of these before, glad to be more informed! :)
 
hectorsn said:
but I'd never attack metal with it and expect it to keep an edge.
Click to expand...

Ahahah yuppp I wouldn't use my knife against other metals, using it as a "wonder tool" to pry open a safe or cutting through barbed wires, or breaking concrete blocks just for the fun of it and making that as a test to determine a super steel or any other steel is super :D

Being a plumbing worker I see that you're well versed and experienced on using and testing utility-functionality aspects of a tool to its best. While myself currently working as an independent private protection personnel on one of my jobs, my usage of a knife would be far less "rough" than you *in a good way ofc. I'm glad now I know more and what to focus / expect from a tool. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge hectorsn :)

So far the cutting tiny thin metal wires or food can part only happens on 1 or 2 from 30 days to me on the job, for most of the days it only used against "softer" materials in which I'm trying to be as careful as I umm..well...I love my tools and I wouldnt want them to chip or break even if something demmands to be done and "extreme" outta nowhere scenario that will definitely abuse my knife is inevitable

The farthest extent of the "extreme" scenario is that one day I have to go car window breaking and pry open a strong box to store money and documents bcs nobody including the owner remembers where they put the keys and so that's last option for me to use what I have on me and we need the contents from the box that very day. (not so strong afterall it opens eventually and luckily theres no chipping or any severe damage to my blade :p). Used a BD1 "pocket sword" I'm having that day and the box was made from some sort of thin aluminum judging by how filmsy it was hahah

I'll definitely explore my options as I do want to feel and see for myself how diverse set of tools would perform. When the "hobby" gets to be used on the workdays and turns useful so much that's happiness and fulfillment to me. Thanks again and cheers! :D
 
Whoa
Wowbagger said:
No problem with the right heat treat and edge geometry:

I modded and have this knife to hand on work days just for lightly shaving and deburing mild steel and aluminum parts (where I can't get a sheet metal deburing tool to do the job). This knife is a Cold Steel Ti Lite six in CTS-XHP.
XHP is a high alloy stainless steel. I guess it is a super steel. It is just really practical steel to put in a knife. I have NEVER chipped this blade doing this and rarely have to sharpen it. The edge is a fairly wide geometry; I have never measured it but is pretty close to the stock, from the factory edge geometry. (a metal file is just a hunk of appropriately heat treated steel with the appropriate edge geometry on the many edges)
View attachment 999573

In the same breath I will say :
I would never in my wildest fantasies consider trying the same thing with a ZDP-189 blade.
I simply love ZDP-189 ! ! !
DO NOT CUT WIRE TIES with ZDP-189 unless you enjoy chipped edges and want to convert your ZDP-189 to a serrated edge slowly over time.

Oddly enough and counter intuitively, my very best wire tie cutter, even very big wire ties, is a little old Swiss Army knife with a very narrow reprofiled edge geometry. It just slips through them with no edge deformation or rolling. Who knew ! I reprofiled it for precision slicing of soft rubber products. I put oil on the blade and the rubber and boy howdy !
The little knife in this set of three that are on my belt any time I am working.
View attachment 999574

By the way stop saying "Blade retention". I assume you mean edge retention but some how have slipped down some slippery slope into a description of how well the blade is being held closed by the system in the knife designed for that purpose (ball detent, cam on the axis lock, lobe on the blade tang of a slip joint etc., etc., etc).

As far as resistance to side loading which is key in my requirements of super steel knives I find M4 to be my favorite partly because of the superior polished edge this steel can support as apposed to my least favorite being S110V which not only distorts fairly quickly from this side loading but can't support a polished shavey, carvy, edge to save it's life. Sure S110V cuts rope for ever using a balanced linear sawing motion but start putting side loading on it in a carving motion, and I'm talking carving materials that are more clingy and abrasive than wood and the M4 makes most everything else look silly in short order and then goes on to cut that material a few times a day for weeks without sharpening.

M4 !
Every thing else is just a wannabe in my view.
I love my M4 knives so much I haven't even attempted the metal deburing thing with them.
I would be more inclined to use one of my 3V knives but they are fixed blades so rather out side this discussion though the CTS-XHP folder does the job flawlessly so that is where I stopped looking at alloys for this purpose.

Other qualities ?
I don't need diamonds to sharpen or touch up my M4 ! ! ! !
Sure if I were reprofiling and taking off a significant amount of the blade then I would go for extra coarse diamond.
Thank goodness I can sharpen my M4 with Shapton Glass stones and have had just the most astonishing and gratifying experiences touching up this world beater steel with Spyderco ceramic Triangle Rods. We are talking tree topping after a couple weeks of cutting difficult punishing and abrasive hard rubber products that the S110V couldn't cope with as well and most defiantly the S110V would require diamond abrasive for even a simple touch up. Sure the S110V could be made to seem sharp with other sharpening media but the edge would not be nearly as durable as an edge in the same steel off diamonds.

Aus8 ?
Yes it is a cute little steel. Good for opening letters and box tape. Even some soft wood carving etc.
From my repeated experience with many knives in that alloy it will not last one day of rubber trimming that I talk about above let alone a week or more between sharpenings.

My preference in a similar steel is VG-10 which I find to be a much more durable alloy though no where in the same league with CTS-XHP and not even in the same galaxy with M4.
Click to expand...

Whoa that splitted ti lite, did you intentionally split it for research purpose? My furthest experiment was buying 3-4 cheap knockoffs of some brands, used and abused them to just see how big the difference is and yup those knockoffs only hold up to cut open letter sealings and itsy bitsy cute amount of cardboards before it lost their BLADE RETENTIO...*ahem* Edge Retention :D in no time compared to ones I've own and know where they come from.

I do note however, comparing the wreckage of the knockoffs to super steels that I found on the internet, their particle consistency (or whats the term for a view of zoomed in splitted blade steel?) That the knockoffs have too much inconsistency dots in them it looks somehow weird and not as solid smooth

I never break any of my knives before, well...chipped a 1095 full sized combat-utility knife once due to my stupid curiousity and decide to punch through some small alkaline flashlight battery. It punches through, theres sparks and smoke from the battery, and yay funny looking tip for the fixed blade. *Which I sold shortly to someone and still get decent amount of return in numbers after my little catastrophic experiment. Lessons learned, I better learn how to use my tools

Glad to see your views n thoughts of the M4, Aus 8, VG 10 :). While the closest I have is in Aus 8 or similar its good to know that they could perform just as fine eventho out of league, out of galaxy from an XHP or M4

The higher end steels will be for my next journey (one piece next shopping list when I get my paycheck hahah) as something I would like to explore myself. I do think of M4 from the Benchmade Contego (has a glass breaker n looks neat), or the XHP n VG10 from Spyderco Military and Tatanka (I love HUGE sized ones preference for folders n fixies)
 
samuraistuart said:
AUS8A is a stainless steel made in Japan by Aichi. It has a composition very close to AEBL, with slightly higher carbon and chromium. You find it in Cold Steel knives. Prior to the San Mai change to VG1, they used AUS8A as the core steel. It's very fine grain, very tough for a stainless steel.
A8 and A8(mod) are alloy carbon steels with medium chromium content. There was talk some time back that INFI was basically A8/A8(mod), but I don't think Jerry Busse took to that kindly. The carbon content is at the eutecoit point, so even with the chromium content, it's grain structure is also very fine, making it also very tough.

Victorinox uses 1.4110 steel in their knives. It is also a very simple, but very tough stainless steel. Carbon ~.5%, Chromium~14%, Silicon ~1%. Very good edge stability.
Click to expand...

Kindly thank you for the info mate :)

Of my 7 knives; 1 is in Aus 8 and good to know that it is apparently a fairly tough stainless steel. The rest are in 440C, 8cr, BD1, and here I am thinking they were somewhat "underperforming" and all compared to something higher end. But now I know more and confident of what I have at the moment from all these replies

Thanks to you and as well everyone for their thoughtful response and shared knowledge :):thumbsup:
 
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