Thoughts on a Full-Aniline Pull-Up Sheath

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Hey leather masters, anyone ever made a sheath out of full-aniline leather, and just left it with an oiled or wax finish?

The more I learn about leather, the more I appreciate a naturally-finished hide, as opposed to the pigmented/protected hides, clear-coat finishes, or sealed leathers.

My question is, can a solid sheath be made out of a full-aniline naturally finished hide? I have a couch like that, and man is it comfortable! Not only that, but it feels great, and any scratches just rub right off. It's not waterproof, but moisture won't hurt it much either. When I compare it to the sealed pigmented leather of my car seats, I much prefer the feel of the couch.

I haven't seen too many naturally-finished sheaths out there. Most of what I see is dyed and clear-coated. I'm wondering what kind of hide most makers start with, whether its a full-aniline, semi-aniline or a protected leather. Seems it would be one of the latter two, since its gonna end up dyed and sealed anyways, why spend the dough on a full-aniline.

Discuss.
 
Hmmm, no thoughts yet. I'll throw a couple others into the mix. Veg tanned leather is usually used because it is harder, so it resists pointy things better. So perhaps one could laminate a full-aniline outer to a veg-tanned core.

For those who aren't that familiar with leather terms, top-grain or full-grain leather, which is the highest quality, is usually finished in two ways: Full aniline, and semi-aniline. This kind of leather, finished with either process, will age very gracefully, perhaps even looking better as time goes on. In many cases (such as when the hide is not sealed), scratches don't faze it, and don't remain, they eventually rub off. This leather is more susceptible to moisture absorption, but the natural oils and intact top layer of the skin allow it to hold up just fine when exposed to water. It will fade in UV light, but that's part of it's "character."

Semi-aniline leather is usually color-dyed, and may have a sealant applied to it that prevents the leather from fully breathing. Full-aniline, on the other hand, is never colored or sealed. It is clear dyed with aniline to soften the hide, and left to breathe naturally.

Not only does leather finished in this way (full-aniline) look and feel the best to begin with, because only the highest quality leather is used, but you get to see the real "character" of the hide, the natural markings, as opposed to many leathers that have the top layer sanded and are then embossed or textured with a uniform repeating pattern. The leather feels awesome, not only because of the lack of a plastic eurathane coating (one kind of sealant), but also because of how soft it is. It ages much more gracefully, actually developing more character as it is used.

And finally, this leather makes each piece unique. If you have a basic (simple) sheath made with protected and dyed leather, it is like many others of its type, and hard to distinguish them. A full-aniline sheath, however, would be unique, just because of the skin. No tooling is necessary to make it so. That would make it pair nicely with a one-of-a-kind custom knife.

So here's an idea. A maker who comes up with a full-aniline outer bonded to a veg-tanned inner would be producing a heck of a custom sheath, and different from alot of what's out there. I bet alot of folks would be interested in the awesome feel, character, better wear/ageing over time, and uniqueness of these sheaths. I don't think it would add a ton to the cost either. Each sheath would require an additional thin piece of full-aniline hide.

Of course my preference would be to have a sheath entirely made of full-aniline leather. If it's too thin, it could be reinforced in other ways.

OK, NOW jump in with your thoughts. Let's hear what you think about making sheaths with full-aniline hides.
 
Well, I gotta admit, I never thought about it before. I'm somewhat familiar with aniline dyes because I'm in the paint and coatings industry, but really didn't even know aniline dyes were used on leather this way, so thanks for teaching me something! :thumbup:

After reading a little, the only drawback I can come up with is the porosity. It would seem to me that a sheath made fully of this type leather and used to any extent outside would allow moisture to penetrate and remain for a fairly long time against the knife inside. If you lined it with veg-tanned leather, it may even be a worse scenario. The veg-tanned would get wet and not be able to readily dry because of the aniline leather, which would keep your knife wet even longer and may even eventually start to degrade the veg-tanned leather itself.

It would probably be a good idea over a kydex liner. The leather sounds like it would make for a fine looking sheath, especially over time when it gets that really rustic look.

Do you know where to get it? Maybe an upholstery place. There doesn't seem to be any at the usual places (Tandy, W/C).
 
What is your definition of a "pull up" sheath?

I was going to stay away from the rest of this, but alas, here goes any way.

My first reaction was/is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The very nature of a sheath is to first protect both the knife and the user from making accidental contact with one another. Therefore a sheath serves best if it is not soft and pliable, but rather stiff and mostly rigid. Aniline leather is not suited for this. Now comes the idea of a veg. tanned "core". In doing this the labor to make the sheath is raised considerably which is no big deal (maybe) if you are making it for yourself, but on the other hand if you are contracting the job, be ready to pay extra for not only additional leather but considerable additional labor time.

The bonding agent to affix the aniline leather to the sheath exterior should to a great degree address the moisture problem from out side to inside because the cement is a pretty effective moisture barrier. If the inside of the sheath happens to get wet then this problem reverses itself for the same reason.

The very reason for the top coat finishes on veg. tanned leather is to address water resistance and to make it as resistant to moisture as possible while at the same time adding a very slight additional benefit of additional rigidity making the sheath just a little bit safer and more resistant to sharp pointy things.

ALL (100%) of my sheaths are fully lined with either deer skin or very light weight cow hide, but the exteriors are almost exclusively veg tanned cowhide. I have made a few "Nubuk" sheaths which is a heavier form of Aniline leather, but still softer than I like to trust for sheaths in every day use.

I could see a kydex sheath covered with Aniline leather and I would have no problems endorsing that at all. Martin Swinkels (sp) from the Netherlands makes this type sheath and can be found here on BF in the Sheath forums.

A quick PS: If a "pull up" sheath refers to a soft slip sheath for a folder or a balisong, and is intended to be carried fully inside the pocket, then the Aniline leather would work just fine

Best Regards,

Paul
 
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Thank you for your thoughts, gentlemen. Being a big fan of fine leather and knives, I got excited thinking about ways to combine the two interests. I'm a big fan of Martin's work, and if he wasn't overseas I would have sent him some knives by now. I just don't like shipping my beauties across the pond.

Coating a kydex liner would work, but I wouldn't enjoy that kind of sheath as much since I'm not a fan of plastic mixed up in a fine leather sheath. Lots of leather purists don't buy kydex for that reason, and would rather have a full leather sheath.

The moisture issue I'm not too concerned about. Full-aniline is porous, so if you got caught in the rain, you could just separate knife from sheath upon return and dry out the sheath. Full-aniline actually responds better to water than veg-tanned leather does. That's one good reason to coat the veg-tanned stuff because water affect it more than an aniline leather. The veg-tanned stuff is so hard I doubt it would pass the moisture from the breathable outerlayer, through itself, and to the knife. Knives can get wet anyways. The only concern is if you were out for days in the rain, and the knife kept sitting next to a wet layer of leather, which I don't think would happen in this case.

Thank you for your thoughts as well, Paul. It sounds like a laminated outer/inner set up is viable, and the cement would provide an extra moisture barrier protecting the inner veg-tanned leather. Since most of the sheaths I see have many laminated layers already, I didn't think doing an outer layer in a different kind of softer leather would add a ton to the the labor, but sounds like it would be more extra labor than I thought.

The question of where to buy it is a good one. I guess I would ask the respected sources and tanneries ya'll already buy from for a referral. I know it can be bought though. I buy leather furniture from a leather direct wholesaler, and he can put whatever kind of hide I want on any furniture frame. So at the very least from a good furniture leather supplier, I would think.

As to the pointy thing issue, and why we use hard (veg-tanned) leather, I'm wondering if a softer leather sheath would really under-perform it significantly. Full aniline leather is plenty tough, and you could laminate layers of it together for the desired rigidity and thickness. Slipping the knife in and out should not be a problem as long as you take some care to slide it down into the sheath and don't just stab it through the side. The straps and shape should hold the knife and blade in place so it doens't stick through anywhere while wearing it. The only issue about the softness I can think of is hard use, but in this case, we're talking about building more of a gentleman's carry sheath than a hard-use sheath.

Please keep your thoughts coming. Given a full-aniline's ability to resist wear and age gracefully, it seems like a winner for unique and classy sheaths. Just waiting for someone to try it!
 
Thank you for the informative and considerate PMs and emails, I'm getting a better idea of how this could be done. BTW, what I mean by "pull-up" is not a type of sheath, but a type of leather. Pull-up is my favorite kind of leather. Basically, it is a kind of full-aniline hide that has been oiled, and has the character that when you scratch, strech or pull it, it shows a lighter color in those areas. With wear and use, the variations between darker and lighter colors gives it a distressed look. It appears that the tanning process for this kind of leather may result in the hide being more corrosive to metal, so another reason there to use a veg-tanned core. One of these days, I'll get around to commissioning a piece with it. If any makers end up with some full-aniline hide, drop me a note!
 
Just a reminder that if any maker that has Busse blanks wants to try a full-aniline sheath, drop me a note. What I'm thinking is some full-aniline cemented onto a veg-tanned core, Would be an awesome sheath with lots of character! I would need the maker to source the full-aniline hide, or point me in a direction where I may be able to pick some out to my taste. Thanks
 
I would need the maker to source the full-aniline hide, or point me in a direction where I may be able to pick some out to my taste.

Any of the larger leather vendors who carry upholstery leather such as www.siegelofca.com and even your local Tandy/Leather factory, will usually carry full-aniline - call Siegel for instance, tell them what you want and they will send swatches.
Despite what you may have been told or read full-aniline is nothing more than a method of finishing upholstery leather, which is usually chrome tanned or sometimes aldehyde tanned - a very few places in the world still produce veg tan upholstery leather. The only real difference between full-aniline and the lesser grades, is full-aniline is very clean (free of surface blemishes) large hides that are uncorrected (the surface is left natural) and made with a "naked" i.e. un-pigmented finish - they are tumbled, usually for several hours, in a clear aniline dye/finish to get that glove soft hand. Lesser grades have a pigmented top coat applied, are often pressed, and/or glazed in order to correct surface flaws - the actual leather itself is no different as to strength, etc.
Another option is elk or buckskin which comes in a naked finish and can be had in various colors including natural and both are even more "glove soft" than cowhide - actually I'm right in the middle of making an elk hide covered sheath - will post pics later - but it will get dyed and have a no gloss finish to make it usable for more than a gent's type knife (way too big for a pocket carry!).

And FWIW - all chrome tanned leathers are dyed at some point (and that includes full-aniline, which is a type of finish not a method of tanning - they are dyed just not pigmented) due to the blue/gray color the use of chromium salts and other chemicals make the leather during processing.
All all veg/bark tan tooling leather is by it's very nature a full /top grain leather with a naked finish - it can be purchased in natural or be vat dyed like full-aniline. It can then be finished up in a natural way to look and feel much like full-aniline albeit not so glove soft, but then full-aniline when laminated to a harder core will lose much of that glove softness.
This link http://www.leatherdepot.com/tanningprocess.htm actually has one of the better descriptions of the upholstery leather tanning process - their only error being that top/full grain is always more flexible - splits can be just as flexible if not more so - they just don't have the surface integrity/strength that top grain does.

Full-aniline actually responds better to water than veg-tanned leather does
That's not only due to the difference in the tanning process (chrome tanned is more water resistant due to the methodology), but also because full-aniline is in fact saturated through with the aniline dye/finish which increases it's water resistance over tooling veg tan - I use the tooling descriptor because harness veg tan is much more water resistant due to the manufacturing/finishing methods.
Full aniline leather is plenty tough, and you could laminate layers of it together for the desired rigidity and thickness.
Yes/maybe, but to get anywhere even close to the rigidity of veg tan, you would have to laminate so many layers of full-aniline that it would make the sheath excessively bulky. I've made more than a few small sheaths from 4 oz vegtan which is about 1/2 the thickness of the normal vegtan used for sheaths and is equivalent in thickness to upholstery leather which is normally 3/4 oz, by using the cuir bouilli method the veg tan sheath will approach the rigidity of kydex and in about the same thickness.
Single thickness 3/4 oz upholstery leather cuts like butter with a decently sharp knife whereas in contrast cuir bouilli prepared vegtan in the same 3/4 oz weight will take a fair amount of effort to be cut. Even two or three layers of laminated full-aniline will not approach the rigidity of the 7-10 oz vegtan used so widely by sheath makers

While the idea is definitely feasible like Paul said if ain't broke - IMO it's kind of like using a Ferrari when a Jeep is called for.........the right tool for the job and all that....
 
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Thanks, Wild Rose, yeah, I'm familiar with most of that. I knew Full-Aniline is chrome-tanned, then vat-dyed in clear aniline to soften the hide. Didn't know Elk and Buckskin were often similarly finished, though. Do you have good sources for those? Thanks
 
Just remembered - I used some full-aniline buffalo (bison) hide as the inlays on this one - it's not pull-up (but that's just a descriptor - several types of oil finished hides will show that distinctive light and dark pattern, not just full-aniline) but it shows one way of using this type leather..........the finish is a very old/traditional oil and beeswax mix
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The red color was derived from natural plant dye i.e. non-pigmented - a pigmented dye is like the standard leather dyes - powdered pigment in a carrier such as alcohol, etc. - when the carrier dissipates it leave behind the powdered pigment which colors the leather. The pigments while coloring the leather can also leave it a bit "muddy" looking and can hide the grain.
The natural vegetable and mineral dyes I've come to prefer use a different methodology, one similar to the industrial aniline dyes - they are transparent colorants that leave the grain fully exposed.

While a far from perfect analogy - kind of like the difference between painted wood and stained wood...
 
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I have found that beeswaxing dyed veg tanned leather allows for the character you are looking for.
These are not cracked. You are seeing the color change from taking my knife in and out for pics. Also, very hard to scratch.

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Very nice work, Wild Rose! It's the first use of full-aniline on a sheath that I've seen, although I prefer non-dyed hides myself. You mentioned other types of leather besides full-aniline that are oil finished? What would those be? I suppose one could oil finish a semi-aniline, since there is still some breathability there, but I'm not sure the end product would be the same; semi-anilines are often textured and color-dyed. Some folks oil and wax finish the Veg-tanned stuff, but it does not seem to possess the natural skin characteristics of full-aniline, such as when you scratch it, the scratch rubs away. My initial thought was that rejuvenating quality of full-aniline is because it is a true full-grain hide, and veg-tanned leather may not be, but I don't really know.

cjpgeyer, your beeswax affect is similar to the effect beeswax has on fine wood furniture. It ages into a more golden color, producing character in the process. I really like the color and character it has given to the flat of the sheath. On the retention strap, however, I don't really like the cracked look myself. Even if its not cracked, it looks like cracking leather to me, which is a sign of really old or poor quality leather. Pull-up doesn't look cracked like that, the leather still appears smooth, just with natural color variations across the surface.
 
www.hideandfur.com - elk, buckskin, moose, and buffalo (bison) are all available

Wild Rose, do you know why would the hides of those animals would be full-aniline treated? With cows, it is the best hides that are full-aniline treated, while the rest goes down the food chain all the way to pigmented leather and NuBuck. Why would the hides of those animals be any different?
 
Some folks oil and wax finish the Veg-tanned stuff, but it does not seem to possess the natural skin characteristics of full-aniline, such as when you scratch it, the scratch rubs away. My initial thought was that rejuvenating quality of full-aniline is because it is a true full-grain hide, and veg-tanned leather may not be, but I don't really know.
You are talking about two different tanning methods thus the differences - one could say that true vegtan is in fact more natural due to it's use of all natural materials when being tanned - neither is better per se - it's all in the end purpose. You also have other methods such as chamois or braintan - both of which have had the outer grain removed (without great loss of strength) and are true oil/aldehydes tanning methods leaving a hide that is like fine velvet when finished properly.
A mis-conception: Full grain leather is nothing more nor less than leather which still has the outer epidermis left on it rather than having it split off or buffed/sanded, the term by itself in fact has no real bearing on quality. Even most patterned leathers such as oak grain or Morocco are full grain - it's just that they have a pattern/finish applied or produced by various methods, such as folding or boarding - confusing I know since a lot of the info regarding leather, and in particular upholstery leather, is a bit of advertising hype and even at times down right mis-information.
If it's a true scratch - a tearing of the surface - it will never completely rub away - on pull-up leather, which is just one type of full-aniline finish, it appears to do that becuase of the oil content, but so so will harness vegtan - it's all in the difference in how they have been "finished". Tooling vegtan is generally left "drier" so it will take and hold the tooling, but a properly applied oil finish will achieve much the same thing.

Even if its not cracked, it looks like cracking leather to me, which is a sign of really old or poor quality leather
With respect that's another mis-conception: even the finest veg/bark tan can be cracked when stressed (just like good steel - over stress it or stress it in the wrong way and it will fail which is not the steel's nor the leather's fault) - again it's all in the way the particular leather is finished.
FWIW - finishing is something of a mis-nomer the process is technically known as currying which is the work of infusing the leather with fats, oil, waxes, dyes, etc by various means and then they are worked to soften/finish them - amounts and types of oils, etc and working are dependent on the leathers intended end purpose and look desired. In the case pictured above it looks more like the surface crazing you often get with a wax based finish - it's not necessarily the leather itself that has crazed but rather the applied wax finish.

Wild Rose, do you know why would the hides of those animals would be full-aniline treated? With cows, it is the best hides that are full-aniline treated, while the rest goes down the food chain all the way to pigmented leather and NuBuck. Why would the hides of those animals be any different?
The info about only the top 5% being used is part of the hype (when applied to leather in general and not just upholstery hides) and is referring ONLY to upholstery leather which is most often tanned in full-sides rather than in half hides aka sides because in the case of upholstery leather, clean, blemish free surfaces in large pieces are required.
In all types of leather the best grade is determined by how free of surface blemishes the leather is, it has NOTHING to do with the structural quality of the actual hide itself - grade C is just as strong, etc. as grade A - just that grade A is virtually blemish free, while C has range marks, brands, etc. Due to those blemishes, the surface is then often corrected in order to minimize them - but it's a cosmetic fix, not a structural quality issue fix.
Full-aniline (cowhide and others such as buckskin) is also used for high quality handbags and shoes, attache and brief cases, etc. (think Gucci and I've used a fair amount over the years producing such items). Because the size of the pieces needed for the end product is smaller than for upholstery, the smaller sides are then able to be used which gives a much larger selection of raw materials to work from i.e. one half of a full hide may have marks while the other may not have any of few - thus the whole is inappropriate for the top quality, but the one side is - still a fairly small percentage f sides are blemish free, but to repeat grading has to due with cosmetic appearance and not strutural quality. Most blemish free hides come from dairy animals (generally more pampered) rather than beef animals (often range bred and raised), this in in part is one reason for the smaller amounts of blemish free hides being available.
In the case of buckskin, elk hide, etc, they are almost always full hides and a full-aniline treatment is the best way to finish them, especially since they are smaller and many more can be put in the tumblers at one, making the method more cost effective - both elk and deer are also much softer to the hand than even the finest cowhide due to their basic structure when compared to the denser structure of cowhide (you do not find bucksin or elk hide corrected at all, due to their structure). One thing with elk/deer most will have some damage, but since the end product is usually a smaller, high dollar item than furniture, then the extra waste is not as critical

Looking at info regarding only cowhide upholstery leather is leading at least in part to your confusion - for instance Tandy/LF sells what they call blacksmith sides - a nice chestnut color pull-up cow hide leather - twist, bend, or stretch if and you get the same light/dark textures as natural pull-up, whihc is just one "color" of pullup (actually most natural raw and just dried hide is a yellowish brown - nothing like we invision natural hide color to be).
Remember pull-up is just one finish for chrome tanned/full-aniline hides - it may or may not be colored, but will have that "look" due to the oil content which can be reproduced in even vegtan when the proper oiling is done (not all vegtan is hard/stiff).

Comparing vegtan to chrome tanned/full-aniline to buckskin/elk hide is IMO comparing apples and oranges - again none is necessarily better - it's a matter of choosing the right leather for the job and even amongst the different leathers there are variations of type and finish based on the end product. Quality leather comes in many types - the rest is based on our own preferences/prejudices of what is "best".
 
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Thanks for the read, Wild Rose, very informative as usual. I will look into Deer hide for this project, since I agree that it tends to be softer. I guess I've never seen a pull-up Deer skin, but I'll enjoy going through the links you provided. Edited to add--went through the links and it's clear to me I need to let a leather pro do the ordering, too much of a maze!

I might disagree with your claim that full grain is not of better quality, however. Full-grain leather that has the top epidermis intact will wear much better over years, stay looking newer for longer, resist scratching better, and have better feel than other hides that have had the top layer sanded off. It's one reason a quality pair of shoes can look new after years while a leather shoe of less quality can look scuffed up after a few months. The full-grain aspect is one of the reasons I like full-aniline hides (which are always top-grain), besides the natural grain of the leather and the aniline treatment. I think maybe what you meant to say is that it's not structurally any tougher than other types of leather, and in that I would agree.

Thank you for answering my question on veg-tanned leather. I knew that at least some of the veg-tanned stuff is full-grain, so that alone wasn't explaining the scratch wear difference between what I've seen of veg-tan and pull-ups. But you've seen some softer veg-tan with a natural oil finish have similar scratch-wear properties as a full-aniline pull-up, so the scratch-wear seems to be a function of the finish rather than the hide. I know some of the guys here make sheaths out of veg-tanned harness leather, rather than the tooling stuff. In fact, I have some, and while they don't match a full-aniline in feel and character IMHO, they are nicer than the regular veg-tan.

Once I've learned a little about those other natural hides you mentioned, I'll ask if I have any other questions. Thanks for providing all that info. -G
 
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