Thoughts on current back-up power generator options: stationary whole house?

S

Sid Post

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Oct 14, 1998
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I have natural gas but, can do LPG as well. I live alone in a farm house so, I'm not looking to power everything I possibly could. I have firewood for heat if I need it, 100lb propane cylinder to power my Coleman Stove/Oven and griddle, and I have a modest 4Kw array of solar panels into a 604Ah 48VDC battery bank and, a separate 2.5Kw array to direct drive my water well into an above ground storage tank.

In a Tornado, I have no illusion of having Natural Gas so, this suggests LPG might be a reasonable alternative. Or a PTO powered generator for my tractor.

I'm thinking initially Kohler versus Generac in the 14Kw range with appropriate transfer switch and a subpanel to power the stuff I care about. I could also do a skid mounted 7Kw/9Kw Kubota diesel GenSet but, I'm going from ~$5K to $7~9K. Diesel is problematic based on my experience of losing power for 3 weeks within a ~130 mile radius in Huntsville, Alabama (yep well water, so a 5-gallon bucket in the ditch to flush the toilet, drinking canned corn and green bean 'juice' for potable water, etc.).

My biggest threat in Texas, no I was not part of the great freeze that broke the Texas power grid, is frozen iced trees and downed limbs. Even without Ice, during the Winter months, I typically lose power for 4 hours or more once a week. I have camped in freezing conditions around pine trees that froze everything solid but myself and the radiator in my car! My tent could not be folded without breaking it and my Coleman stove took 30 minutes to get some water to drink! I'm looking to knock the rough edges off and protect my house from freeze damage with my backup power, not some TEOTWAWKI solution which would be more of a sailboat headed out into the Pacific for greener pastures!

So, what wisdom do you have for a standby power generator for a house? Keep in mind, I cannot charge my solar batteries if they are frozen as well so, solar power could become a direct drive only option for my main 'household' array.

TIA,
Sid
 
Live in hurricane land here. I did a 20k generac on propane. I bought a 500 gallon tank. I used 300 gallons in 13 days after ida. That was running 23 hours a day on all but 3 days when we both worked. She was off a lot. We carefully managed heaters (hot water, drying clothes) etc in a house with us and 3 kids to make efficient use of the propane. I shut it down 1 hour a day per instructions and to clean out the screen, check the oil, change oil, etc. I was very pleased with how it performs. If I had natural gas, I would still keep at least 250g tank of propane as backup due to increasing instances of nat gas loss.

Your plan sounds great. The sub panel thing with a smaller generator is a good way to cut usage especially if you have it stored. I debated that for years before jumping in. Going through ida, just having that here and running made life real easy and was able to help others.
 
What is your battery chemistry? Might be worth passively insulating them seasonally, as most will generate a bit of heat during charging, and that would prevent a freeze risk if they run down over night.
If you are on well water, you could plumb in a diaphragm pump, so that at least you could fill buckets more easily, in the event that the feeder system is damaged.
As for generators, you would need to use/cycle the diesel, not much of a problem for LPG/Natrual, so that seems to me to be the better choice, plus allows the use of appliances. Also really consider your passive power losses, they do add up, and they are bigger savings overall than having a system that can run everything, but is inefficient. Another option could be a portable windmill set, they are not great for full time due to the noise, but they are quieter than a generator, and could provide an additional backup, though the mounting and such might be a chore to store when it's not in use, since wind storms are in the risk matrix.
I'd go with enough to power any fridge/chest freezer since you can keep that duty cycle low, and a bit of extra, a good control system will help with efficiency. And find out how many local propane suppliers are around and how many folks they think will be doing the same thing!
 
gadgetgeek said:
What is your battery chemistry? Might be worth passively insulating them seasonally, as most will generate a bit of heat during charging, and that would prevent a freeze risk if they run down over night.
Click to expand...
LiFeP04. I'm putting them in box with a freeze switch to turn on some heat to keep them from freezing.
gadgetgeek said:
If you are on well water, you could plumb in a diaphragm pump, so that at least you could fill buckets more easily, in the event that the feeder system is damaged.
Click to expand...
With 2500G in my tank, that is easily enough for over 1 month of usage for me. Especially if I buy some paper plates to cut down on dishwashing and in Winter I typically shower every other day to protect my skin. Laundry is also reduced in Winter because I don't sweat as much or spend time outdoors building fence, mowing, etc.
gadgetgeek said:
As for generators, you would need to use/cycle the diesel, not much of a problem for LPG/Natrual, so that seems to me to be the better choice, plus allows the use of appliances. Also really consider your passive power losses, they do add up, and they are bigger savings overall than having a system that can run everything, but is inefficient.
Click to expand...
I have two diesel tractors so, keep diesel fresh isn't a real concern. Sure, if I don't run the genset, I'd need to drain it periodically or treat the diesel to stop algae growth and deal with any condensation.

In terms of electrical "Vampires", that is what the subpanel is for.
gadgetgeek said:
Another option could be a portable windmill set, they are not great for full time due to the noise, but they are quieter than a generator, and could provide an additional backup, though the mounting and such might be a chore to store when it's not in use, since wind storms are in the risk matrix.
Click to expand...
I thought about a windmill but, after working with and watching my buddies windmill, the cost to benefit ratio isn't there.
gadgetgeek said:
I'd go with enough to power any fridge/chest freezer since you can keep that duty cycle low, and a bit of extra, a good control system will help with efficiency. And find out how many local propane suppliers are around and how many folks they think will be doing the same thing!
Click to expand...
We have one local Propane supplier, another in the immediate area, and the local TSC has propane as well. I don't have to use my stove or oven since I have Coleman options and a lot of Charcoal grill and BBQ stuff in addition to my stick burner BBQ.

My luxuries would be a hot shower every other day, a heater to warm my office and bedroom, and enough power to run my Fridge and Freezers, and general lighting plus my Internet/Laptop. I would need it to power the well as well if I was low on water and the solar well system was not effective due to cloud cover or ice/snow.

I want extra capacity so, that as I get older and may have more demanding needs due to declining health, I don't have to add stuff and learn to use it. I'm also starting to add Hydroponics and Tilapia so, electrical needs will grow over time primarily due to lighting in Winter months for the plants and heaters for the fish.
 
Sounds like you have most of it thought out, but it's always good to have that extra set of eyes on a plan. As far as passive losses, I wasn't thinking about electrical, I was more thinking about heating/cooling efficiency of the structure. I'm in the subtropics, and most houses here would be in serious trouble in a freezing circumstance mostly due to poor window fitting, exposed pipes etc.
Certainly sounds like you have enough water capacity. As a thought, if you have diesel onsite already, what about plumbing straight into the main storage tank? Run the generator to temp at periodic intervals, but then the only "static" fuel is whatever is in the line, and that can be pre-filtered. Might be against the code rules, I know it is in some places, and not in others. The benefit for diesel is that you can transport it yourself far easier than you can propane, should the need arise. From my experience, propane really just chugs along until -40, but if you are only getting summer grade diesel, keeping it from gelling just takes a little forethought, a little insulation and a few watts of heat are enough, and that is simple enough in a static situation. Not like you are expecting massive freezing temps. So in that case they are functionally the same.
 
We had a whole house Generac installed this yr. So far it hasn't had to be used. Just another safety feature we added as we have gotten older. Runs the a/c too. Runs on natural gas. Expensive but in our minds worth it. stay safe
 
Diesel gelling where I live is pretty rare and to be honest, the few times where it could have waxed up a fuel filter, I didn't need my tractor or pickup so, it was OBE until the weather warmed some.

Regarding the GenSet, yes, running once a month or so to ensure everything is properly lubed and it is ready to go is an important consideration for backup power during bad weather.
 
My sister in the Seattle area has a whole house also, I don't remember which brand. I asked her this very question, she said the most important thing was to make sure there was a large enough presence in your area to ensure service people would come in a timely manner.

She loves hers.
 
I live in Panama City, FL. Hurricane Michael hit us 3 years ago, and everything was shut down for over 3 weeks. No power, water, cell phones, etc.. Even the cell phone towers were destroyed. I had a whole-house Generac installed the year before. It runs on natural gas, and will power everything. An absolute life saver. Highly recommend.
 
Why would there be no NG in a tornado? Usually, if anything is up afterwards, it’s NG, from my limited experience.
 
Natural Gas is frequently turned off fearing line breaks. That group of 315 Tornadoes in the Huntsville, Alabama area had everything shutdown for a long time.

Great when Icy branches take out the power in Winter though!
 
We have tornados here, but they mostly just take out power. Lost power quite a bit between tornadoes, wind, ice, snow, etc.. but the NG stays on. However, I don't recall us ever getting 315 tornadoes in one city before! Wow! Stay safe.
 
I lived NW of Huntsville about 20 minutes away. From front porch, I witnessed 2 F-4's and 1 F-5! I'm not sure what was in the soil around there but, it seemed like every tornado in the area followed basically the same route.

The time we had that huge number of Tornadoes shut down power for 3 weeks were I lived and took out power in over 100 mile radius due to power line damage and the Nuke Plant being shutdown. For a few nights after that, it was eerie being and bed at night hearing something crash on the roof to discover a work boot or sauce pan had fallen from altitude. I had Christmas, Easter, etc. cards and school home work from hundreds of miles away in my yard. Being on well water made those three weeks a bigger challenge than I had expected but, I managed to rough it pretty well being an avid camper and hiker when I lived in Arizona. Sort of sucked when I ran out of beer and soda pop but, I still had a lot of canned veggies to drink/eat.
 
Lived in Texas 25 years but now in rural Oklahoma for last decade so I am very aware of weather caused outages and set up about like you. I will tell you my experience with portable gas gen and propane fed generac but first I think and do: using solar, the freezer can be ran when the sun is shining and off at night, showers can be cut down to warm water wash rag bath if necessary but your pressure tank may hold out till your shower is finished anyway and refill when sun comes up or u can shower during daylight, laptop charging up during day and used lightly after dark, led headlights, flashlights and lanterns with stock of rechargeable batteries used for illumination and that gets us down to refrigerator which I’m hoping your solar can handle overnight. A/C is a sticking point but newer technology units sip energy and lithium batteries give much more amp hr useage than acid. I have a gas 5.5kw standard generator with a whole house transfer switch but it is very noisy as well as inefficient on fuel. So, with solar and the above concessions I can usually get by without it. I put a whole house 22kw generac w auto transfer at my mothers and here are my thoughts: very convenient for her (and me), fed by propane and propane company is very close to her, but it uses a good amount of propane and is overkill for her. They are very expensive and in the case of auto start and transfer, it runs non stop from the time of outage until the power comes back on. It could be done manually if desired. For someone who is physically capable to pull out a standard gen set, hook it up and transfer power, I am staying with that route for now. My only concern is a/c but most of our outages are in the winter so no problem there. My vote would be more battery capacity if necessary as once purchased, it is basically free power until battery replacement time which can be 10yrs with lithium. I use my solar as backup and have additional outlets behind my tv, refrigerator and necessary places so they can be utilized instead of firing a generator. I had the gen set long before the solar so I am fortunate to have both. I don’t know if that helps any or I am just typing to hear the keys rattle but it is a subject I am very interested in
 
Sid Post said:
I have natural gas but, can do LPG as well. I live alone in a farm house so, I'm not looking to power everything I possibly could. I have firewood for heat if I need it, 100lb propane cylinder to power my Coleman Stove/Oven and griddle, and I have a modest 4Kw array of solar panels into a 604Ah 48VDC battery bank and, a separate 2.5Kw array to direct drive my water well into an above ground storage tank.

In a Tornado, I have no illusion of having Natural Gas so, this suggests LPG might be a reasonable alternative. Or a PTO powered generator for my tractor.

I'm thinking initially Kohler versus Generac in the 14Kw range with appropriate transfer switch and a subpanel to power the stuff I care about. I could also do a skid mounted 7Kw/9Kw Kubota diesel GenSet but, I'm going from ~$5K to $7~9K. Diesel is problematic based on my experience of losing power for 3 weeks within a ~130 mile radius in Huntsville, Alabama (yep well water, so a 5-gallon bucket in the ditch to flush the toilet, drinking canned corn and green bean 'juice' for potable water, etc.).

My biggest threat in Texas, no I was not part of the great freeze that broke the Texas power grid, is frozen iced trees and downed limbs. Even without Ice, during the Winter months, I typically lose power for 4 hours or more once a week. I have camped in freezing conditions around pine trees that froze everything solid but myself and the radiator in my car! My tent could not be folded without breaking it and my Coleman stove took 30 minutes to get some water to drink! I'm looking to knock the rough edges off and protect my house from freeze damage with my backup power read more from Safepowering.com, not some TEOTWAWKI solution which would be more of a sailboat headed out into the Pacific for greener pastures!

So, what wisdom do you have for a standby power generator for a house? Keep in mind, I cannot charge my solar batteries if they are frozen as well so, solar power could become a direct drive only option for my main 'household' array.

TIA,
Sid
Click to expand...
we are looking to get a portable generator and have the house wired with a generator plug-in so we can run things from the panel during an outage. At a minimum we'd like to run some lights, 2 fridges, microwave, TV, computer, wifi router, charge phones and ipads, and 2 gas furnaces or a portable AC, depending on weather. Options we're considering are: 1) Westinghouse WGen7500DF - really like that it can run off of propane as an option and is 6750 running watts on propane, but concerned about reliability and noise. 2) Honda EU7000 - steep price however like that it's quiet, but worried it won't give us quite the power we need during an outage that could last a few days as it's only 5500W sustained, plus only runs on gas. Which would you choose? Or any other recommendations for 10,000W and below that are dual-fuel, reliable, and not the loudest of the bunch?
 
No personal eperience, but have read a lot on the topic, as I've been considering the same thing. One thing I'm looking for is a generator that will run on either gasoline or propane. I've been reading that if you don't use a gasoline generator on a regular basis, the caburator can get gummed up from aged gasoline. Also, long term storage of propane is easy. Gasoline has a much shorter shelf life. I consider this an issue as I'm hopefully not going to need to use it on a regular basis, (On the other hand, I live in California, and the current power plan does not look particularly stable to me.) The downside of propane is that you need more of it as it has a lower energy density.
 
I have a Honda EU3000, which admittedly is only used to keep the bare necessities going, such as the fridge, freezer, washing machine, and a few lights and phone chargers going.

It works fine for a week or so, depending on how much fuel I manage to store prior to a storm.

As knarfeng knarfeng mentioned, keeping the generator in good working condition is important.

I change the oil twice a year, and only put enough fuel in it to run it for about 20 minutes until it runs dry. I add fuel conditioner when I do this each time to cut down on the carb gunking up.

I run it five times a year, and keep a spare battery, spark plugs, carb cleaner, and oil.

I also keep a committed array of cords and surge protectors specifically for the unit, as I don't wire it directly to my house, but rather run cords.

This is in case I need to leave my home, I'm able to quickly load it on my truck.
 
My daily driver is also my emergency and camping generator. I have a F-150 with the powerboost engine that has a 7.2kW generator built in. The bed has 4 120v 20a outlets and one 240v 30a outlet. There is enough power to run many things in the house. When hooked up and running, the internal combustion engine will cycle off and on every 20 minutes or so for about a minute to recharge the lithium battery that powers an inverter for the system. People have reported when using it to run their house it just uses a few gallons of gas per day.
 
dialton said:
Lived in Texas 25 years but now in rural Oklahoma for last decade so I am very aware of weather caused outages and set up about like you. I will tell you my experience with portable gas gen and propane fed generac but first I think and do: using solar, the freezer can be ran when the sun is shining and off at night, showers can be cut down to warm water wash rag bath if necessary but your pressure tank may hold out till your shower is finished anyway and refill when sun comes up or u can shower during daylight, laptop charging up during day and used lightly after dark, led headlights, flashlights and lanterns with stock of rechargeable batteries used for illumination and that gets us down to refrigerator which I’m hoping your solar can handle overnight. A/C is a sticking point but newer technology units sip energy and lithium batteries give much more amp hr useage than acid. I have a gas 5.5kw standard generator with a whole house transfer switch but it is very noisy as well as inefficient on fuel. So, with solar and the above concessions I can usually get by without it. I put a whole house 22kw generac w auto transfer at my mothers and here are my thoughts: very convenient for her (and me), fed by propane and propane company is very close to her, but it uses a good amount of propane and is overkill for her. They are very expensive and in the case of auto start and transfer, it runs non stop from the time of outage until the power comes back on. It could be done manually if desired. For someone who is physically capable to pull out a standard gen set, hook it up and transfer power, I am staying with that route for now. My only concern is a/c but most of our outages are in the winter so no problem there. My vote would be more battery capacity if necessary as once purchased, it is basically free power until battery replacement time which can be 10yrs with lithium. I use my solar as backup and have additional outlets behind my tv, refrigerator and necessary places so they can be utilized instead of firing a generator. I had the gen set long before the solar so I am fortunate to have both. I don’t know if that helps any or I am just typing to hear the keys rattle but it is a subject I am very interested in
Click to expand...

Solar is nice but, the initial buy-in really steep. LiFeP04 batteries will last a lot more than 10 years if you manage them properly.

Whole house "Generac" generators are nice for elderly and disabled people but, as noted, the cost of operation can be pretty high. In terms of fuel burn, if you aren't loading the circuit hard, they burn a lot less fuel so idle time with no-load isn't a huge concern for most people.
 
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