Thoughts on Forged in fire

Atlas Knife Company said:
...implying that only a laminated blade can pass a JS bend test? Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me.
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I didn't hear anyone say that, but if someone made that claim, they're full of baloney. The ABS doesn't even allow laminated/damascus/pattern-welded blades in Journeyman Smith testing. They know very well that purposely-HT'ed monosteel blades can pass the "bend test", and have done so hundreds of times.
 
I'm really hoping they find a new martial arts "expert". I would also like to see J. just become the host. Will doesn't really seem to do anything except ask questions of the experts. The experts could just answer the questions without him asking them. Otherwise I'm looking forward to a second season.
 
J. Hoffman said:
I'm really hoping they find a new martial arts "expert". I would also like to see J. just become the host. Will doesn't really seem to do anything except ask questions of the experts. The experts could just answer the questions without him asking them. Otherwise I'm looking forward to a second season.
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How can the experts answer questions, if Will isn't there to ask em? ;)
 
AVigil said:
At what time is that on the video?
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AVigil: I will have to go back and review the video - I "know" (amazing how we "know" at times turns out wrong) - I heard him make that statement, or words to the effect in the video. BUT - I was wrong "once" before...... well, MANY times before, and if wrong this time I owe everyone (especially Murray) an apology .

Edit: Listen from about 2.00 to around 4:00 - while he doesn't say exactly the words "only a laminated blade can pass a JS bend test?" He does goes into a bit of detail about how/why the "western" style of bladesmithing and how the testing favored the western style over his Japanese style.

Understand, I don't now Mr Murray Carter from Adam's house cat, but from reading on here I do understand he's a well respected bladesmith who has made a VERY successful business. I have to respect his bladesmithing abilities, and it seems his marketing ability is good also........ as has been said "could sell a refrigerator to an eskimo"? AND I DO NOT mean anything negative about eskimos or Inuits.

Ken H>
 
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No problem Ken,

I heard him talk about the laminated blades bending.

Considering Murray is a Master Smith in the ABS I was pretty sure he was not implying what people thought he was.
 
3:30 Murray states that "All Japanese blades when pushed to a certain degree will bend but they will never break"
3:42 "Whereas a homogenous steel blade will resist bending but then once it passes a certain point the blade will snap."

1:15 I was also kinda baffled by his claims that a laminated blade is easier to sharpen because of the mild steel on the sides. Who sharpens the secondary edge? I see what you mean by his sales pitch.
 
I never recalled him making that statement, either. (Personally, the ABS Journeyman test doesn't tell anything about a blade being a good knife. It is totally designed to test the abilities of the smith...not the knife.)



What he did say, in several places, was that Japanese blades are sharper than western blades and that Japanese blades are unbreakable...which is baloney.


Murray said that one problem why he didn't win was that he used a bar of 1035/blue steel san-mai he already had in the shop to save time, ...because he didn't want to take time it would take to make up a different billet.....and then more or less states that it is the perfect unbreakable steel. Several times he says that he only had five days to make the sword, implying that he was unfairly rushed. He also says that he knew how to make a perfect blade from the san-mai steel that would be unbreakable and incredibly sharp...by water quenching the sword..., but didn't because he was worried it might bend and/or warp, and not hold up to the tests, so he did the inferior oil quench. Then he goes on and says he oil quenched to make it more unbreakable. There are a lot of other inconsistencies in the video.

Returning to the san-mai billet, I would love to know if he makes his own, or purchases it from Hitachi already laminated. I know that is how I get mine. (nothing to do with being able to).

I think Murray is a good businessman, and has good knifemaking skills. I also think he runs more of a factory than a custom knifemaking shop. He has a big personality, and is proud of himself, his business, and his Japanese heritage and training...and he has every right to that. Not everyone will feel the same, and that's their right, too.

I feel the biggest problem with the video is that it did not serve him well in showing how to loose gracefully without making lots of excuses....which is part of his Japanese heritage and training.
 
Maces blade past the test better then Murray's blade and that is why he lost.

He probably is having a hard time believing he did not win.

I would like to see the final contestents blades actually being tested in the manner the blade was designed for. I have a $8 matchete' I bought while in Gutemala that would have perform better then both of those Kris swords in that final test :D
 
Atlas Knife Company said:
1:15 I was also kinda baffled by his claims that a laminated blade is easier to sharpen because of the mild steel on the sides. Who sharpens the secondary edge? I see what you mean by his sales pitch.
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I don't know for sure but I believe that this statement comes from the fact that single bevel Japanese blades are correctly sharpened across the entire bevel. IE... there is no secondary bevel just the flat above the shinogi line and the bevel right down to a sharp edge. So having 1/2 to 3/4ths of the bevel mild steel will make it somewhat easier to sharpen.
 
Don Hanson III said:
How can the experts answer questions, if Will isn't there to ask em? ;)
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I agree with Don, I thought Will did just fine as a host. He's an emcee, his job is to be personable, show interest, introduce people and lay out the basic parameters. It's also part of his job to build up a bit of drama, but I didn't think he was a jerk about it at all. Towards the end of the season, he was shown asking some pretty smart questions of the judges, which gave them a chance to say why they decided, whatever they decided. :thumbup: (those questions might sound really basic to us, but not to the viewer who just tuned in)
 
AVigil said:
At what time is that on the video?
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Upon further review, he did not make that exact claim in those exact words.

at :52 he begins talking about laminated blades. Shortly thereafter, he says laminating will "make a blade that is impossible to break", which we all know is absolute nonsense. C'mon now. Seriously? :rolleyes:

Actually, the closest that cat comes to directly addressing monosteel blades in a bend test starts around 2:00 when he says outright that monosteel blades will "flex and spring back straight again", which can indeed be true of any blade with good geometry and HT.

But he then goes on a rather confusing tangent about mono blades being strong and flexible, and resisting deformation, but not holding an edge, and tough, but also not being easy to sharpen... which simply doesn't make any goldang sense at all.

Then around 3:20 he starts claiming that the judges on FiF didn't understand how knives work, because they docked him points for his blade bending and staying bent after impact. That's the first time I've ever heard that from a serious famous knife/swordmaker. Grasping at straws much?

And BTW, it's not real smart business-wise to whine about losing fair'n'square, when you just got an expense-paid chance to show off your work in front of a few hundred thousand people... that just makes you look like a spoiled little brat.

(Almost every other maker who "failed" on that show, said, "I'm gonna go home and get back to work, learn from my mistakes, I'm gonna try better next time, kick more butt next time, man that was a challenge, thanks for the chance, I met some really cool people, I learned from this, " etc etc. That's what grownups do. :thumbup: Those are the kind of craftsmen I admire and aspire to learn from. )

That man claims, "All Japanese-style blades will bend, but they'll never break. It could be bent back, whereas a homogeonous steel blade will bend to a certain point and then break. And you can always bend 'em back straight again"... Gimme a freaking break... what a load of absolute bullshit. Any first-year apprentice, European or Japanese or otherwise, should know that's utter nonsense.

The more I listen to him, the more I'm convinced that maker is far more about promoting himself than he is about promoting or providing cutlery. Frankly, I'm deeply disappointed in him, because I expected a lot more from his reputation. :(

So yeah... as I alluded to before, that guy offends not only my intelligence, but the entire wealth of study and experience of the whole custom knife field and those who support it. :thumbdn:
 
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Just watched the vid... What rubbed me the absolute wrong way was... He didn't even have anything nice to say about Mace, his competitor, or Mace's blade. He even incorrectly claimed it was 'just' lowly monosteel, when it was nicely pattern welded. Total self-promotion vid and pretty much a sour-grapes sore looser rant.
 
I agree with every bit of what James and Justin just said. I have stayed away because the last time I made a comment about some of Murray's statements it caused a small war. If the dealings with Ed Fowler taught me anything, it was to watch making comments about people who have devoted fans who idolize his words.


Again, he is a good maker who runs a successful business...but I don't think this video was a good business move.
 
I thought the video was made to promote his new line of knives. Murray does make most of his own sanmai, I think this piece was pre-made.
The comment about Maces blade being mono steel I think was about the heat treating.
All the smiths that are set up to make swords did very well in the competition

Hoss.
 
DevinT said:
All the smiths that are set up to make swords did very well in the competition

Hoss.
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I made a point along those lines a while back..A smith or two that tried to heat treat swords in small gas forges had heat treat issues that lead to warping and in one case a large smashed in divot in the blade from being too soft. I noticed several who had sword sized salt pots and the heat treat went much, much better..Its like anything else, the right tools for the job can make all the difference.
 
The comment about Maces blade being mono steel I think was about the heat treating.
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Nonsense. Mace's winning blade was not mono-steel. HT has very little to do with it being mono-steel or not.

If one clearly does not understand what fairly basic terms like "HT" or "monosteel" mean, they would be well-served to read more and post less in ShopTalk. Just my opinion, of course.
 
Maces blade was a great looking sword and performed like champ. His heat treating set up for swords was far superior to Carters small forge and really gave him a good performance blade.

Did anyone else notice a kinda strap that was mounted to Mace's guard to the handle and looked like it was pinned?

What was that?
 
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Devin Thomas has a pretty good grip on these things, James...

james terrio said:
Nonsense. Mace's winning blade was not mono-steel. HT has very little to do with it being mono-steel or not.

If one clearly does not understand what fairly basic terms like "HT" or "monosteel" mean, they would be well-served to read more and post less in ShopTalk. Just my opinion, of course.
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