Tips? Sharpening 420HC Buck knife on King whetstones...

[devindmoon]

Just ordered King whetstones, combo 1000/6000 for my Buck 110 (420HC steel). It's my first knife sharpening purchase.

Just wanting some tips for what to expect. I'm aware that it's a pretty inexpensive stone, and you get what you pay for. Just wondering what others' experience is with this stone, and what I should expect with the steel I'm working with.

What I'm looking for:'

I decided to start using my knife at work (construction), and I want to use it farely heavily, often as a replacement for disposable razorblades. I cut lots of Tyvek (the tarps used to cover the sides of houses before the siding is put on), and I use it to sharpen my construction pencils, and opening boxes, etc.

So, yeah, the knife is taking a beating.

- Is there an ideal way to sharpen the knife so as to maintain an edge longer and cause minimal damage? It's still got the facory edge (13 - 16 degrees). Is there a more ideal edge--deeper or even more shallow?

- Technique? I can't find much info out there on this particular steel with this particular stone. Does it matter if I put more pressure while pushing blade away from me or toward me, vs more pressure with back of knife going away/toward me? I see videos of people recommending both. Some Japanese knife sharpeners seem to recommending the latter, while I see lots of videos for EDC knives on different types of stones putting the pressure either the former method, or full pressure the entire way on both strokes, or in circular motions. I believe Buck's recommended method is putting the pressure on the blade as the blade is pushing into the stone vs away. But is that only important when using their recommended stones?

- Stone upkeep: even though these King stones are "cheap", I want the best bang for my few bucks. What's a good method to keep these up as long as possible? Soak 5-10 min before use? Rince when done? Use coarse sandpaper to smooth the surface? If they start to feel too flat, is there a way to get the proper coarseness back?

Lastly, it's not entirely too late for me to order different stones if someone can convince me that they're not the right tool for the job. I'd rather know before I use them and pass the point of no return. I've got at least 4 more days before they arrive.

I'm also still working on making a strop of some sort. Havn't settled on anything yet. Might end up getting some scrap leather from... somewhere, or an old leather belt from a thrift store, or use the newspaper method. I read somewhere that some chefs use newspaper for keep up their knives--apparently the black ink works as a really soft abbrasive, good for super fine upkeep/stropping?

Thanks. Oh, and I'm definitely new to sharpening. I've tried the old Buck soft Arkansas stones a couple times. But it's a really old stone that my father in law has had for decades and I have no idea if it's still in proper condition or has beed damaged or over-used.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi,
I got some advice, and lots of links to more text/pictures/videos of interest, its a lot of stuff

Just ordered King whetstones, combo 1000/6000 for my Buck 110 (420HC steel). It's my first knife sharpening purchase.

Just wanting some tips for what to expect. I'm aware that it's a pretty inexpensive stone, and you get what you pay for. Just wondering what others' experience is with this stone, and what I should expect with the steel I'm working with.

What I'm looking for:'

I decided to start using my knife at work (construction), and I want to use it farely heavily, often as a replacement for disposable razorblades. I cut lots of Tyvek (the tarps used to cover the sides of houses before the siding is put on), and I use it to sharpen my construction pencils, and opening boxes, etc.

So, yeah, the knife is taking a beating.

- Is there an ideal way to sharpen the knife so as to maintain an edge longer and cause minimal damage? It's still got the facory edge (13 - 16 degrees). Is there a more ideal edge--deeper or even more shallow?

- Technique? I can't find much info out there on this particular steel with this particular stone. Does it matter if I put more pressure while pushing blade away from me or toward me, vs more pressure with back of knife going away/toward me? I see videos of people recommending both. Some Japanese knife sharpeners seem to recommending the latter, while I see lots of videos for EDC knives on different types of stones putting the pressure either the former method, or full pressure the entire way on both strokes, or in circular motions. I believe Buck's recommended method is putting the pressure on the blade as the blade is pushing into the stone vs away. But is that only important when using their recommended stones?

- Stone upkeep: even though these King stones are "cheap", I want the best bang for my few bucks. What's a good method to keep these up as long as possible? Soak 5-10 min before use? Rince when done? Use coarse sandpaper to smooth the surface? If they start to feel too flat, is there a way to get the proper coarseness back?

Lastly, it's not entirely too late for me to order different stones if someone can convince me that they're not the right tool for the job. I'd rather know before I use them and pass the point of no return. I've got at least 4 more days before they arrive.

I'm also still working on making a strop of some sort. Havn't settled on anything yet. Might end up getting some scrap leather from... somewhere, or an old leather belt from a thrift store, or use the newspaper method. I read somewhere that some chefs use newspaper for keep up their knives--apparently the black ink works as a really soft abbrasive, good for super fine upkeep/stropping?

Thanks. Oh, and I'm definitely new to sharpening. I've tried the old Buck soft Arkansas stones a couple times. But it's a really old stone that my father in law has had for decades and I have no idea if it's still in proper condition or has beed damaged or over-used.

Hi,
Congratulations on the added element of time pressure on sharpening advice

Whats the hardest task you want your knife to be able to do?
Do you break a lot of disposable razor blades?
Unless you're doing finish wood work (cabinets ...), high grits aren't needed,
and they're not fast enough to grind out damage or change angles in a reasonable amount of time

You'd be better served with a basic double sided hardware store stone ,like ace hardware( $3.99-$14) or a norton crystolon (~$20)

Dont worry about changing angles until next week (or month), for some perspective consider that under 15 dps edge can chop bones And 12 dps edge can still shaves/whittles beard hair after 1000 slices of hardwood ,
basically each time you sharpen lower the angle, and keep lowering angle until the damage happens sooner than previous angle, then stop lowering and go back to previous angle
Same for grit (if you have lots of grit choices), after a few (dozen) sharpenings, if not slicing long enough, go lower grit, if not push cutting long enough, go higher grit grit
picture of utility razor geometry comparison to other blades



stone maintenance, flattening and condition, either use another coarser stone, or a ceramic tile (or glass) and "sand" (loose grit abrasive grain), more details on that resurface the stone, deglaze the hard way which is just a a 20 second lapping/rubb to scratch a new surface

weaker bond stones like the kings are easier to flatten

Also see best uses for soft arkansas and how to revive a used one (flatten, then recondition)



Also forget about stropping on papers first try sharpening with a brick you're in construction so you should have a few to rub together to flatten and then sharpen on

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

For 420HC, I'll second the basic hardware store stone, in either SiC or aluminum oxide, used with some oil. The ACE stone suggested is a good one; at various times, they've had them in either of SiC or AlOx, but both work well. Sears also carries a nice 6" x 2" stone in SiC (as found in my neighborhood anyway), which is along the same lines as the ACE stone. The 'Fine' side of these stones will leave a great working edge on such a blade. The 6" x 2" stones of this type can be had for around $7 - $8 or so. ACE also carries an 8" x 2" stone, as well as more 'portable' stones of 3" & 4" lengths. For pocket/folder-sized blades, up to something the size of a Buck 110, I've grown to like using my 4" version for those (I have them in both SiC & Alox), especially for quick & light touch-up tasks. A SiC stone will grind a bit faster, though grinding speed isn't much of an issue with 420HC anyway; the AlOx is likely the better finishing stone for a steel like 420HC.

420HC from Buck or Case will sharpen up nicely on virtually anything, from Arkansas stones up through diamond, so there's little need to spend a lot of $$ on a stone for this steel.

As for the sharpening angle, I'd just leave it at the factory angle from Buck (13-16° per side). They adopted that angle spec for a reason, after much testing; it works very well for the vast majority of tasks, and is easy to maintain.

For stropping 420HC, I've always preferred green compound on leather, and bare leather or denim to follow that. If the sharpening work done on the stones is very good, it doesn't take much of a strop to clean up the edge on 420HC.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

I'll add that you should probably add a combination stone to your collection, but since you've already ordered the King stones they'll work fine.

I'd be inclined to use the King stones just like Murray Carter (do a web search, he has a bunch of video and his technique is very consistent from one to the next), but with one twist.

Set the bevel on the 1k, and then elevate the spine a touch for the 6k. Do a handful of very light leading passes and finish with a few ones doing a backhone pass as Mr Carter does on his 6k.

The Kings work best of carbon steel, but will do fine on 420hc. I find the 6k King to work best on stainless applying a very light secondary bevel on the cutting edge rather than polishing the entire edge - a microbevel. See the sticky at the top of the MT&E page:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/634739-Microbevels).

If you do many passes on the 6k you will get a finer edge, a smaller number of passes will leave you with a rougher edge - better for utility.

You can also apply some of the mud that forms with the 1k King stone to a sheet of paper - just smear some on with fingertips, and let it dry. Use this for a stropping compound, wrap the paper around a dry stone or even a smooth brick. You can also smear some of this mud on a piece of smooth wood (a cutting board, paint stick etc) and strop on that and don't have to wait for it to dry - don't use too much water, a damp smear is best.

The newspaper strop will work, but is not really for utility edges or anything you'll be using hard. For a working edge, the 1k and a bit of stropping on plain paper will also work well - the plain paper will shine up any burrs that still need removing and also burnish that steel nicely. You might not want or need the 6k for your working edge. For most utility application a rougher edge will last a lot longer than a finer one anyway.

Soak the Kings for 10 minutes or so before use or leave them soaking and change the water twice a week, and get in the habit of moving around on the stone. This will help prevent dishing or grooving. If they get bad, it can be flattened on a smooth bit of concrete with a lot of water, or yes you can use 80 or 120 grit wet/dry over a hard surface to flatten them - plenty of water and rinse well after.

If you are not already comfortable sharpening, do not learn on any of your good knives. You will probably ruin one or even two learning, so get some cheap ones for this. When you like the edges on those, start in on your better stuff. This is the most important bit of advice I can give you.

Murray Carter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJdtCLIGQm8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozZF2EgnYm0

And some of mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuGwd9YZ8_g&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DWdfhnpBe0

 

[jc57]

I don't have a King water stone for comparison, though I do own some other water stones.

For steels like 420 HC, I personally prefer a Norton India combo stone (Aluminum Oxide) if the edge needs some work or rebeveling, or just Arkansas stones for maintenance. Strop on some firm leather with a little green buffing compound rubbed into it for burr removal.

You can also maintain 420HC between sharpenings with a regular kitchen honing steel if you have one. It's a simple steel and responds well to simple techniques.

 

[aesmith]

Just ordered King whetstones, combo 1000/6000 for my Buck 110 (420HC steel). It's my first knife sharpening purchase.

I bought a King 1000/6000 water stone many many years ago, mainly for woodworking tools. It does a good job on fine sharpening but the 1000 is not really coarse enough if the edge needs a lot of attention. I added a second 250/1000 combination stone and keep them both wet in a plastic sandwich box. I rarely flatten them as I find I can keep them flat enough by making sure I use the whole surface evenly. One disadvantage is that the 6000 is very soft and to get the best edge you need to stick to trailing strokes, or at very least finish trailing. For knives I find them OK on basic steels.

 

[Jason B.]

I would also recommend the Norton India.

The King stones will give you a polished and razor sharp edge but a coarser grit like that of the India stone will perform much better in your intended tasks. Buck 420hc is done right but its still not much for edge retention, I would guess nightly touch-ups on the fine India to become routine.

 

[blade dude]

If you touch it up every night on the 1k and at the end of the week address any chips or whatever on a 320 or 400 or 600 you'll be good. I'd get a 320/1000 a 400/1000 or a 600/1000 instead of a 1000/6000. I actually stop at 320 on my benchmDe 910 I use it hard but my delica I go to 1000 and if I'm bored 3000. You might keep the king and find a 600/2000 stone if you wanted. If I were you and I had the money I'd try the king for now going up to 6000 and stopping at 1000. If you like it then get a 100/320 norton. If you don't because it takes too long get something below 400 and 600 combination.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[devindmoon]

Wow... thank you for all the replies. I was pleasantly distracted at work trying to digest all the info.

Here's my quick take-away:

...do not learn on any of your good knives. You will probably ruin one or even two learning, so get some cheap ones for this. When you like the edges on those, start in on your better stuff. This is the most important bit of advice I can give you.

A great reminder. Thank you. I will pay attention to your input as I practice. I will definitely start by practicing on my crap Gerber knife. No idea what it's made of, but I'm sure it'll do for practice. And my supervisor is giving me a Milwaukee Utility folding knife (stainless steel of some sort?) that I'll start using at work, and practice sharpening with, too. I'll shelf the Buck until I'm more confident with these.

Consensus seems to be that I need a coarser stone to go with my incoming King combo. So, I "splurged" on an Ace Hardware combo stone. And I have some Smith Honing Solution that's been sitting around for about 15 years... not sure if this stuff goes bad(?).

Perhaps as I gain confidence with these cheap knives and cheap blocks I'll reward myself later on with a decent stone for when I want to use my nicer knife.

Whats the hardest task you want your knife to be able to do?

I want a knife to keep up with me on the construction site--cutting lots of plastic, cardboard, tape, sharpening work pencils, shaving or trimming various types of wood/siding.

For stropping 420HC, I've always preferred green compound on leather, and bare leather or denim to follow that. If the sharpening work done on the stones is very good, it doesn't take much of a strop to clean up the edge on 420HC.

Thank you David for your insight. I’ll be visiting a leather shop soon to pick up some cheap scraps to practice stropping on. I went to both Lowes and Ace and couldn’t find the green compound. Well, Lowes had a pack of 5 different colors (including green), but I passed. I’ll probably have to order online. Whats the stuff called that you use?

If you touch it up every night on the 1k and at the end of the week address any chips or whatever on a 320 or 400 or 600 you'll be good

For steels like 420 HC, I personally prefer a Norton India combo stone (Aluminum Oxide) if the edge needs some work or rebeveling, or just Arkansas stones for maintenance. Strop on some firm leather with a little green buffing compound rubbed into it for burr removal.

You can also maintain 420HC between sharpenings with a regular kitchen honing steel if you have one. It's a simple steel and responds well to simple techniques.

I would also recommend the Norton India.

The King stones will give you a polished and razor sharp edge but a coarser grit like that of the India stone will perform much better in your intended tasks. Buck 420hc is done right but its still not much for edge retention, I would guess nightly touch-ups on the fine India to become routine.

Hoping the Ace stone (also Auminum Oxide) will do the trick as a starter? Perhaps my little pat-on-the-back to myself later on will be the India stone. Or a coarser King whetstone. Thank you all for the replies.

Jason B., I watched your video from 2011 where you revealed the "end all" Strop (Knives Plus strop-block), and I have been very tempted to order it. In the mean time, any tips on creating my own, similar block, with some green compound and leather on a block?

One disadvantage is that the 6000 is very soft and to get the best edge you need to stick to trailing strokes, or at very least finish trailing

Thank you for chiming in. I’ll take this into account, too.

….

All:

The comments about the King stones and my particular steel got me thinking (and here we are, off topic already…) I’ve got a Bobby Flay knife set, I looked around and all I can find is that it’s “High-Carbon Stainless Steel”… is that similar to the 420HC that Buck uses? Should those knives hold up fine with the King stones?

And (bunny trail again) I’ve got an Anton Wengen Jr., Othello (Solingen Germany) that I would like to eventually get to using (AFTER I get some good practice under my belt)… pretty sure it’s Carbon Steel of some sort. Would the King stones be better for this type of knife than the 420HC and other High-Carbon Stainless Steel’s?

I’ve definitely got my work cut out (hah) for me. I’ll touch base again as I practice on my crap knives.

 

[HeavyHanded]

All:

The comments about the King stones and my particular steel got me thinking (and here we are, off topic already…) I’ve got a Bobby Flay knife set, I looked around and all I can find is that it’s “High-Carbon Stainless Steel”… is that similar to the 420HC that Buck uses? Should those knives hold up fine with the King stones?

And (bunny trail again) I’ve got an Anton Wengen Jr., Othello (Solingen Germany) that I would like to eventually get to using (AFTER I get some good practice under my belt)… pretty sure it’s Carbon Steel of some sort. Would the King stones be better for this type of knife than the 420HC and other High-Carbon Stainless Steel’s?

I’ve definitely got my work cut out (hah) for me. I’ll touch base again as I practice on my crap knives.

The King stones work well on everything up to high carbide stainless - stuff like 440C, 154CM, D2, and anything with vanadium carbides will be a hard sell once you get much above the 1k King stone. They work well on pretty much all low alloy carbon steel (some non-stainles steels have significant carbide content) though will begin to slow down on higher Rockwell carbon, they still work and will do a good job.

Most kitchen cutlery stainless the Kings do a very good job on, I used to keep mine permanently soaking just for doing budget minded steels as in many cases they worked better than some of my nicer stones. Personally I prefer an 800/4k combination, but 1k/6k is fine as well - an excellent combo for kitchen duty.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Wow... thank you for all the replies. I was pleasantly distracted at work trying to digest all the info.

Here's my quick take-away:

(...)

Thank you David for your insight. I’ll be visiting a leather shop soon to pick up some cheap scraps to practice stropping on. I went to both Lowes and Ace and couldn’t find the green compound. Well, Lowes had a pack of 5 different colors (including green), but I passed. I’ll probably have to order online. Whats the stuff called that you use?

For 420HC, it doesn't need anything special. Chances are, the green stuff you saw at Lowe's would handle it. Sears also carries a green stick/crayon-type compound, labelled as their '#6' compound in a tube. I've used some dry powder green compound I picked up at a local rock polishing/lapidary hobbyist shop, applied to the sueded inside face of a leather belt; I mixed it with a little mineral oil-based hand lotion to bind it to the leather and keep the dust down. It works great for 420HC; but again, you likely needn't go to that much trouble for this steel. The green-on-leather combination for 420HC is just a quickly effective way to clean up burrs on this steel, which really doesn't need much beyond that, if the finishing touches coming off the stone are pretty thorough. In particular, the somewhat higher hardness of Buck's 420HC (HRC ~58 or so) makes cleaning up the burrs easier, as the burrs tend to break away more easily than the same steel's burrs at lower hardness, which can be a little more ductile ('bendy', if you will), and takes a little more patience, using the same stropping method. Even then, they're still pretty easy to deal with.

Hoping the Ace stone (also Auminum Oxide) will do the trick as a starter? Perhaps my little pat-on-the-back to myself later on will be the India stone. Or a coarser King whetstone. Thank you all for the replies.

The double-sided ACE stone will handle it easily. The India is essentially the same type of stone (aluminum oxide), and it has a good reputation.

The comments about the King stones and my particular steel got me thinking (and here we are, off topic already…) I’ve got a Bobby Flay knife set, I looked around and all I can find is that it’s “High-Carbon Stainless Steel”… is that similar to the 420HC that Buck uses? Should those knives hold up fine with the King stones?

And (bunny trail again) I’ve got an Anton Wengen Jr., Othello (Solingen Germany) that I would like to eventually get to using (AFTER I get some good practice under my belt)… pretty sure it’s Carbon Steel of some sort. Would the King stones be better for this type of knife than the 420HC and other High-Carbon Stainless Steel’s?

I’ve definitely got my work cut out (hah) for me. I’ll touch base again as I practice on my crap knives.

'High carbon stainless' is basically a catch-all description for most any stainless with 0.5% or higher carbon content, which is what makes it heat-treatable to adequate hardness for edge-holding. 420HC meets that minimum, as will most any other basic cutlery stainless steels found in kitchen knives meant to be sharpened to hold an edge. The 'high carbon stainless' definition excludes stuff like flatware, i.e., 'butterknives', which are much lower in carbon content and not made to be sharpened.

I don't think the Anton Wingen/Othello cutlery uses anything special (steel-wise), needing no more in terms of a sharpening stone. An India/AlOx stone of the type discussed here should handle that as well. Their vintage knives (I think) are not stainless; might be chrome plated carbon steel, in fact, with mirrored finish. I used to have a couple of big bowies (10" blades) from A.G. Russell, which were made under contract (I'm pretty sure) by the same maker, based on identical styling and German origin. The bigger issue with them is, they were very heavy & THICK blades, which could benefit from a more aggressive stone, such as a large coarse SiC stone, for hogging away a lot of steel and thinning them out. But, for simple maintenance sharpening, the India/AlOx stone should work fine.


David

 

[lonestar1979]

For purposes you use knife for,id rather use disposable utility blades,they work much better,and are easy to replace if dull on site.Used to do construction work too,and carried buck110 in a sheath,and utility knife.Used buck for food cutting,thats all.

 

[devindmoon]

My King stone order was cancelled. So I need to re-order. The upside, this gives me more time to think about whether I should change my order and what to change to.

I've seen several votes for the Norton India, and recommendations for a lower grit King (800/4000 maybe? Or even lower?)

I dont see myself investing in higher quality knives in the near future, so with what I've got, what would be a better option (in the similar pricepoint$20-30) as an upgrade from $6 Ace block... Or perhaps an addition to it for finer sharpening...

Gonna find some green compound somewhere...

 

[HeavyHanded]

Personally I'd get a King 240 grit, 800/4k combination stone.

Realistically you have a ton of options even at your price point. I don't like going from oil stone to water stones on the same knife, so I'd shoot for a small set that will do what you need - a coarse, medium, and fine stone.

I wouldn't worry about the green compound - for what you're doing it won't be needed coming off a 4k King, if you even go that high for utility use. Not to mention, smearing some waterstone mud on a smooth piece of wood works plenty good and will be easy enough to come by.

If you just want a single solution, a combination Norton Crystalon stone used with oil - you can reclaim the grit to use as a utility stropping compound - demo'd here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF2Y7Hha0MQ

It doesn't get more simple than that without using a carbide pull-through.

I'd also recommend one of my sharpening blocks - lined below thru my signature, but is a bit outside your price point.
Quote from one recent customer:

Just want to say excellent system. simple and extremely effective. This will be my second one.
Thank you.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

My King stone order was cancelled. So I need to re-order. The upside, this gives me more time to think about whether I should change my order and what to change to.

I've seen several votes for the Norton India, and recommendations for a lower grit King (800/4000 maybe? Or even lower?)

I dont see myself investing in higher quality knives in the near future, so with what I've got, what would be a better option (in the similar pricepoint$20-30) as an upgrade from $6 Ace block... Or perhaps an addition to it for finer sharpening...

Gonna find some green compound somewhere...

The good thing is, 420HC and (likely) the other knife steels you have can all be sharpened with the simplest of stones. You have lots of options, in other words. I'm sure you can use the King stones; I haven't commented on them specifically, simply because I haven't used them. But 420HC and similar steels are very easy to get along with. That also includes it's suitability for very simple stropping, as well. I think green compound on leather is the best match for it (it's been my favorite matchup for 420HC); but, as your technique and ability with the stones improves over time, you'll likely find you may not need to rely on stropping as much anyway, and instead can do most or all of the burr cleanup on the last few touches with the stone. Anything beyond that can even be taken care of with a few swipes on bare leather or denim (or paper, etc).


David

 

[Jason B.]

The strop I use in the video in a Handamerican base with a horse leather strop (with compound). Similar to other strop bases its very solid and makes it easy to change out strops.

For a stropping compound I would recommend 1 micron DMT Diamond Paste. It works faster and will cut any steel.

If you still want to try out waterstones I would suggest saving up a bit and buying a bit higher quality.