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What would be the differences or advantages or disadvantages of forging a Titanium Sword oppose to the ancient way?
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Titanium Sword?
- Thread starter Tommy Mahone
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To simply compare a "titanium" vs a "steel" sword is a gross oversimplification that doesn't do justice to the subject of swords. Dismissing titanium alloys outright as always inferior to steel for sword use is also a dead end way of addressing a really complicated notion.
Firstly, titanium is an entire family of alloys, just like iron-carbon alloys (steels). Not every steel makes a good sword, and neither will every ti alloy make a bad one. The properties of each alloy vary considerably.
Secondly, which sword type? A rapier? A saber? Slash and thrust or hack and cut? The design and use of the sword itself will have a big effect of what material is "best." An optimal sword design is somewhat determined by the properties of the material itself.
For the purpose of answering the OP, let's assume that two swords of the exact same dimensions are made. The titanium alloy version will weigh 35-40% less and in most cases will be more resistant to heavy deformation. The blade will be much quicker in use, BUT will have less impact power.
OR a ti alloy blade can be made to weigh the same as the steel version, but will be scaled up in size. Then the large ti sword blade gains even more speed and power in use just due to sheer size. And no, ti alloys do NOT need to be thick to make a strong sword, as a matter of fact thinner is better.
Yes ti alloys can get and stay very sharp as well. Sword design can simply be subtly altered to take advantage of the properties of ti alloys, just as sword designs are changed to take advantage of various steels' characteristics.
Ti alloys are way more like lightweight springy steel then most folks tend to think. It's not like aluminum, and is very tough and strong. No viking warrior would have been buried with a bent ti alloy sword, because you can not simply fold a ti alloy blade over as they could with steel.
Ti alloys have some really great properties that are universally desirable in a sword. A sword is a weapon, where speed and accuracy are king. If high-level titanium alloys and forging processes were available to the weapon smiths in the time before firearms took over the battlefield, they would have used the hell out of it to great and deadly effect.
Firstly, titanium is an entire family of alloys, just like iron-carbon alloys (steels). Not every steel makes a good sword, and neither will every ti alloy make a bad one. The properties of each alloy vary considerably.
Secondly, which sword type? A rapier? A saber? Slash and thrust or hack and cut? The design and use of the sword itself will have a big effect of what material is "best." An optimal sword design is somewhat determined by the properties of the material itself.
For the purpose of answering the OP, let's assume that two swords of the exact same dimensions are made. The titanium alloy version will weigh 35-40% less and in most cases will be more resistant to heavy deformation. The blade will be much quicker in use, BUT will have less impact power.
OR a ti alloy blade can be made to weigh the same as the steel version, but will be scaled up in size. Then the large ti sword blade gains even more speed and power in use just due to sheer size. And no, ti alloys do NOT need to be thick to make a strong sword, as a matter of fact thinner is better.
Yes ti alloys can get and stay very sharp as well. Sword design can simply be subtly altered to take advantage of the properties of ti alloys, just as sword designs are changed to take advantage of various steels' characteristics.
Ti alloys are way more like lightweight springy steel then most folks tend to think. It's not like aluminum, and is very tough and strong. No viking warrior would have been buried with a bent ti alloy sword, because you can not simply fold a ti alloy blade over as they could with steel.
Ti alloys have some really great properties that are universally desirable in a sword. A sword is a weapon, where speed and accuracy are king. If high-level titanium alloys and forging processes were available to the weapon smiths in the time before firearms took over the battlefield, they would have used the hell out of it to great and deadly effect.
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As I recall from one of Mecha's threads a while back, he was able to hit 52 Rockwell on a titanium sword, which is right in the ballpark hardness of where a lot of highly regarded manufacturers treat their steel swords. Color me impressed.
This is the one that's always intrigued me. I really like the idea of a great big Bidenhänder that was still light and quick enough to use with standard Longsword techniques.
But if it were thicker, it could be much stiffer for the same weight, which would come in really handy on long thrusting swords especially. I'm thinkin' of a really long rapier...
Alternately, I do like the idea of starting with thick stock, so you have plenty of room to add distal taper; not because of strength. I've seen many real antiques (in steel) that started out 1/3" to even almost 1/2" thick at the base. Rapiers, sabers, katana, longswords, etc.
This is the one that's always intrigued me. I really like the idea of a great big Bidenhänder that was still light and quick enough to use with standard Longsword techniques.
But if it were thicker, it could be much stiffer for the same weight, which would come in really handy on long thrusting swords especially. I'm thinkin' of a really long rapier...
Alternately, I do like the idea of starting with thick stock, so you have plenty of room to add distal taper; not because of strength. I've seen many real antiques (in steel) that started out 1/3" to even almost 1/2" thick at the base. Rapiers, sabers, katana, longswords, etc.
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That is correct, The Possum. Low 50s HRc is plenty doable. However, in titanium alloy engineering, rockwell hardness tests are not very revealing or accurate when predicting the mechanical properties of the alloy and its heat treatment. I would say it applies more when dealing specifically with a blade, though. Ti alloy big blades remain a very unexplored realm.
Distal taper has a huge effect in a long blade, ti or not. It's amazing to make a blade thinner and have it become more rigid. In my experience, a hardened ti alloy is MORE stiff than a springy, boingy steel when it's thin. So thicker or thinner, a hard ti alloy can thrust right through a target just as steel will. By the way, beta ti alloys can be hardened way beyond HRc 60 for ballistic armor purposes, but at that hardness they aren't very good for a blade. Stiff flexibility = real strength in a sword.
Distal taper has a huge effect in a long blade, ti or not. It's amazing to make a blade thinner and have it become more rigid. In my experience, a hardened ti alloy is MORE stiff than a springy, boingy steel when it's thin. So thicker or thinner, a hard ti alloy can thrust right through a target just as steel will. By the way, beta ti alloys can be hardened way beyond HRc 60 for ballistic armor purposes, but at that hardness they aren't very good for a blade. Stiff flexibility = real strength in a sword.
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I'm going to assume that due to its lower weight, titanium would feel more rigid and less "floppy" when ya swing it around. There's not as much mass at the end of the blade to make it whip from momentum during quick direction changes/maneuvers. But I can't imagine thinning it would make it more resistant to flexing if ya stab it into a hard medium.
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Mecha, reading everything you've said here was amazing. I never really liked titanium as a material, just seemed weird to me.
After reading all this though I definelty am extreamly interested (still weird but in a good way). They way it differs from steel is almost mind boggling to me, in the same way that I bronze handles completely differently than steel (I love bronze). It's all just so facinating. You difineltly have me interested now.
What alloy of Ti do you use for your blades?
I really gotta start looking into all this titanium stuff.
After reading all this though I definelty am extreamly interested (still weird but in a good way). They way it differs from steel is almost mind boggling to me, in the same way that I bronze handles completely differently than steel (I love bronze). It's all just so facinating. You difineltly have me interested now.
What alloy of Ti do you use for your blades?
I really gotta start looking into all this titanium stuff.
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The Possum: The reason the blade acts more rigid is because, when looking down the spine from the guard to tip, the distal taper basically makes the blade into a triangle, rather than a rectangle. So during the shaping of the sword, one feels it becoming more stiff even though it is getting thinner as you go, just due to geometry. Like the arms of a bow. So the "longer" the blade is getting from the tip back at any point, the thicker it is, which completely changes the way shocks and impacts affect the blade. Ti alloys in general are not floppy, they deaden harmonic forces and return straight without jiggling which makes them "feel" true and heavier than they are in motion, and have a nice punch when cutting.
Running Bird: I'm glad this sort of stuff interests you. Not everybody cares about oddball swords, you know. Right now the main alloy I'm using for large blades is still 89.5Ti 10Nb 0.5Fe. When you're looking into ti alloy swords, just remember that almost everything you read on the internet is not based on real experience and often shows a lack of understanding about ti alloys and/or swords in general! X] The truth is that a huge, heat-treated ti alloy blade that has been painstakingly optimized for use as a sword or machete is an extremely rare thing that almost nobody has ever seen or used. There is just a lot of conjecture about it.
By the way, I did make a small handful of forged bronze knives a while back. I love bronze as well.
www.bladeforums.com/threads/bronze-bladed-knives.1288453/
Running Bird: I'm glad this sort of stuff interests you. Not everybody cares about oddball swords, you know. Right now the main alloy I'm using for large blades is still 89.5Ti 10Nb 0.5Fe. When you're looking into ti alloy swords, just remember that almost everything you read on the internet is not based on real experience and often shows a lack of understanding about ti alloys and/or swords in general! X] The truth is that a huge, heat-treated ti alloy blade that has been painstakingly optimized for use as a sword or machete is an extremely rare thing that almost nobody has ever seen or used. There is just a lot of conjecture about it.
By the way, I did make a small handful of forged bronze knives a while back. I love bronze as well.
www.bladeforums.com/threads/bronze-bladed-knives.1288453/
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Guess we were talking past each other. I thought you meant the same dimensions/geometry in titanium vs. steel. Guess you were talking about distal taper vs. sharpened bar. Either way, sounds like we agree. 
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Guess we were talking past each other. I thought you meant the same dimensions/geometry in titanium vs. steel. Guess you were talking about distal taper vs. sharpened bar. Either way, sounds like we agree.
Oh yes, you are totally correct that the light weight of the ti does help reduce floppiness! I just wanted to highlight that ti alloys are not particularly wiggly or easy to bend despite being flexible.
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Y'know, meeting Mecha and getting to handle one of his titanium blades in person was one of the high points of Blade Show 2017, which was in general the best knife show I've had. 
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Y'know, meeting Mecha and getting to handle one of his titanium blades in person was one of the high points of Blade Show 2017, which was in general the best knife show I've had.
Same here, Storm Crow! It was great to meet you in person. You and Tobin are really a couple of great and funny folks. I noticed that your blades are all way bigger than I thought from the photos, like small machetes almost.