To peen or not to peen?

V

vaquero57

Joined
Nov 12, 2000
Messages
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I used to have really good luck epoxying my slabs on 1 at a time, drilling my holes, and roughing my pins and epoxying them in the holes. Lately I have had a few people tell me they should be peened in place not epoxied. I have been trying peening and even though I know practice makes perfect, so far I do not like it. Tonight I ruined my second handle on 1 knife cause the peens are not worth a crap and the wood is badly dinged from trying to get some of the pins peened far enough. I will have to grind it back off and go for #3. Is there anything wrong with say threading my pin material with my tap and die set rolling them in epoxy and inserting them in the holes. Why would this not be plenty strong? Could really use some feedback. Keep in mind here that I know everone has their own way of doing things but be open minded. If the epoxying is perfectly acceptable then this is personally the way I prefer cause it works very well for me. Vaquero57
 
57 i use epoxy and loveless style bolts. and sometimes a piece of mosaic pin in the middle. a friend uses a press to flatten his pins. remenber you are making your knives, do what you want to do.

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Laurence Segal www.RHINOKNIVES.com
 
Vaquero57...

On a small knife you may not need to peen...

With modern epoxy, pins work mostly to prevent "shearing" forces...Like when you drop your new knife butt first onto the floor!

Older styles of construction called for peening to actually hold the scales in place...This is still a good style to use with trade knives and such...

One way to do this is to use a good anvil and peening hammer, take your time and peen with a slight "crowning" action...Make the pins just a little oversize and roll your hammer in a circle as you peen...Work both sides a little at a time...A slight relieving of the scales will help as will taking off the sharp edges on the end of the pin...

The idea is to "splash" the pin into the slight relief you have made in the handles...

Running Dog

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That is what I was getting at Running Dog. With the epoxy , the pins should keep the scales from "shearing" and if I thread the pins then the epoxy wil stick better to the pins and the comb. of epoxy on my pins and my scales should provide enough strength to prevent my scales from "lifting" off. I read something like this on Engnaths' site. I just did not want my friend to think I did not believe in him. This is the way I prefer and it works better for me. I might be able to peen a couple, but the current knife I have been ruining is a small hunter with 8 1/8" pins in the handle! What do you mean still a good idea for "trade" knives. Vaquero57
 
Peening Pin's is an art ,it takes a verry small hammer and very light taps ,I peen with a 1 ounce hammer useing the Ball end you might also think about buying a Head Spinner and spin the Pin's it leaves a domed head effect which you can leave of sand off but the ends of the pin will still be flared out and flush

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TbarK Custom Knives
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Just to clarify things for us vaquero57, what method do you use for peening? Maybe there is something that you could be doing a little bit differently to get more acceptable results?

 
I Preshape my handle to the shape I want (usually round with palm swell) and then I cut my pins so that about 1/8" sticks out from handle on each side. Then I rest the pin on an anvil and lightly tap the pin around in a circle and turn over and repeat. I think my pins are a little too long because I cannot peen enough to prevent from being able to slide them back and forth. When I tried making them shorter though I was almost into the wood. Also if I remove much more off of the handle then I will end up grinding off the "mushroom" and have a loose pin. I think brass would be a piece of cake but nickel silver is not as malleable. It takes alot more to peen nicel or even stainless than it would brass. I think for now I am gonna thread my pin material with a tap and epoxy them in. My slabs are epoxied anyways so I do not see why this would not be strong enough. On the Engnath site it talked about blind pins that are threaded rod and covered with epoxy so they grip the slab to hold it. Now surely Engnath was no dummy. I think he knew his stuff so if it worked for him it should be good. Not that I say peening is wrong just that there should be several ways to get the same result. I also think that peening has its place. Vaquero57
 
Thats part of your problem, 1/8". If you leave too much sticking out, it's real hard if not impossible to peen it properly and it will usually bend. Cut them off to about an 1/8" then sand or file them down to about 1/16". Oh yeah, do you counter sink the holes?? I use a 45 degree hand ream to creat a little countersink. Thats the area the peened pin will fill. The key to proper peening is a very light touch. Use a small hammer and hold it loosely between your thumb and index finger. Let it bounce a little when you strike the pin. Work one side, then the other, then back to the first side. Repeat this till both sides are peened into the countersinks. Prior planning and patient peening produces perfect pin appearance.
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I'm curious how many of you do it like this:
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To get a nice peen, shape the tops of your pins prior to peening by sanding a bevel into the end of the pin at each end.....like so:
* _____*
/.....\
|.....|
|.....|

Then with a smooth (maybe mirror smooth?) ball of a hammer, gently strike the edge of the flat part of the bevel (where the *'s are)

As you round off the top of the pin, carefully refile this flat shape one more time and repeat the pinning process.....should easily fill the pre-beveled holes in your slabs....

On your other question about threaded pins, I'm not sure what the threaded pins would look like in a finished slab....would you be able to see where the thread meets the surface once you have sanded it all flat?



[This message has been edited by Diligence (edited 11-23-2000).]
 
Your threading idea should work, but I would thread the pins and then tap the holes. It would be like using screws only no heads. The epoxy would serve to keep them from coming loose or vibrating out, pretty much super strong loctite. The threading alone should be strong enough to hold scales on, if you've ever broke the head off a screw in a 2x4 and then tried to pull it, you know how strong a hold it has.
Peening really isn't that hard with practice though. At least I haven't had much trouble. I ruined one set of scales learning how and one set of scales when I worked with dymondwood for the first time, but haven't had any more trouble. Its amazing how strong a hold you get from a peened pin too, I found that out by taking off the scale that was ruined. I already had 2 of 3 pins done and cracked the end on the third.
I use brass rod and cut it off about an 1/8" long. Then grind it down a little shorter depending on how thick the scales are and what they're made of. I also coutersink the tops of the holes slightly. Then I just start tapping each end of the pin little at a time with a tack hammer while its resting against an anvil.The hammer has a flat face, haven't had a chance to pick up a good ball peen hammer yet. The one I've got is to beat up to do a nice job. The tack hammer really does work fine though. I pretty much work the pin flat instead of working at the edges. When its almost flush and fills the counter sink I quit. Then I grind it off with a fine belt and do any final cleaning up of the handle. There doesn't have to be much expansion left on the end of the pin for it to hold. Its the same idea as trying to slip a 5/32" diameter pin into an 1/8" hole. It doesn't work at all.

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I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer... but I've got the sharpest knife in the room.
 
57 the term trade knives refers to historcal piece.s from the 1740's appox, to the end of the fur trade in about the1880's the were used to trade with indian and white fur trappers and a general form of currency.

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Laurence Segal www.RHINOKNIVES.com
 
Diligence, I do not thread the pin as if to screw a nut on. In other words I use a die that is a hair too big for my pin so I only cut "surface" threads in it. They would not be functional because they are not very deep and they are flat on the top of each pitch due to lack of "cut". Therefore they will shape nicely. The very light thread gives JUST enough for the epoxy to bite into. If I remember corectly for a 1/8" pin I use like a 4x70 die. It does a nice job of cutting "shallow false" threads in the rod. Vaquero57
 
I may have to try that....sounds like it's almost the same as when I use 50 grit and hand "scrub" the pins prior to epoxying.....
 
How about a "rivet spinner" Make up your pins like Diligence says, epoxy them in place with the ends exposed. Go to Tandy or like leathercraft store and buy a pair of small "seeders", a leather working tool. Cut them off to about 2 inches. Chuck one in your drill press and clamp the other in your drill press vise so that the hollow shape of the seeder fits into the rivets in your knife from each side of the handle. Put your press into its highest gear and apply a modest pressure, you will feel the metal give when it heats the rivet to the proper temperature and a dome will be formed. Cool, then turn the handle over and do the other side. With a little practice and a couple different size seeders for different size brass pins you will turn out some nice looking rivets. Also, make your fit between pins and handle holes a good friction fit. This is the method alot of older factory knives were riveted.
 
I don't know how many people peen the pins in their organic handle material, I'd like to know how many makers do this and feel it is necessary. It seems like overkill to me and you run the real risk of splitting your wood, bone or ivory. Sounds like many of you are doing this successfully though.
If I wanted a more secure fastener I think I'd just go to the Loveless style bolt. I do have an idea for using blind wood pegs that would pass through the tang and only partly into the handle material on each side. This would provide a wood to wood bond that with epoxy seems like it would make an incredibly strong handle, though I'd still use pins also because I like the way they look.-Guy T.
 
I generally don't peen my pins....rather I make sure that I have multiple "epoxy rivets" between the scales. I drill a hole through the tang, then drill blind holes into each slab in the exact same location as the holes through the tang. Put on lots of epoxy so that it will fill the holes completely....and you now have epoxy rivets.

I usually do this in several places on the tang if possible just for that little extra security.

However, I do like the look of pins that have been peened and then polished without having been ground flat with the slabs....kind of rustic...and it matches nicely with nuggeting.

TED, how much pin do you leave sticking out when you "spin" them?
 
Deligince, I usually leave out about the same amt. as you would to peen a pin. I know thats kind of a copout, but its a good place to begin.

Ted
 
Nope, no cop-out and no worries - I know how much you mean. I really like the look of spun pins...like on the old standard Buck 110.

Something about that look appeals to me, yet I haven't done it. Do you spin them when the slabs are fully shaped and then just do your finish buffing?
 
Vaquero as a rule of thumb, I leave the thickness of the pin sticking out of the hole as well as put a slight bevel around the ends. To peen them, I use a little kiddie ball peen hammer I think I got out of an electrical tool kit. The head is only 1/2" across. I make sure the head is ultra smooth so it doesn't mar the handle material. Lots of light little taps, working one side for a bit then the other. Also, and I think this eliminates slab splitting, drill or ream the pin hole slightly oversize so you can easily insert the pin with your fingers. Another thing I do is put a little 5 minute epoxy in the hole just to keep the pin in place while peening. Just peen around the outer edge of the pin. I think the more you hit in the center, the bigger risk you run of a split (found this out the hard way). Hope this helps. Don't give up on it, when you get the hang of it, it looks really cool.

Hugh

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Scraped, burnt, sliced, smashed. AHHHH, knifemaking!!!!

[This message has been edited by totally tactical (edited 11-24-2000).]
 
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