Tojiro Nakiri and Paring knife - first thoughts

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Nov 16, 2002
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Koki at www.japanesechefsknife.com was kind enough to sell me some Tojiro DP wood handled knives: a nakiri and a paring knife. Fast shipping and low prices as everyone else had claimed.

Wish I took pictures as these knives look absolutely gorgeous. They also have the sharpest out-of-box edges I've ever seen (I'm new). The way they floated through paper in a very surreal manner. That said, the edges did look a little thick. The knives were heavier than I expected, too, and the butts of the handles were sort of sharp feeling.

Got to cook last night. Used the paring knife to peel a spud, skin an onion, and clean up some green onions. The edge cut like it was too thick. This was not the joy I experienced with my Shun Elite paring knife.

Actually cutting the veggies with the nakiri, though, now that was fun. The added weight and the sharp edge made pushcutting quick and easy. The guillotine effect I experience with the Shun Elite 8" chef's knife (my other nakiri ) wasn't felt, but that may have been because the nakiri's edge is sharper, but thicker. My money is on the thickness keeping me from celebrating Bastille Day with my nakiri. Using the nakiri to slice up the steak made me conscious that the edge was thick and that I missed the belly of the chef's knife.

I'm very impressed by my brief sampling of Tojiro's goodness and their factory edges have raised my standards, but the KAI Corporation has spoiled me rotten and had me expecting the Tojiros to be lighter and thinner out of the box. Perhaps I should've bought a gyuto, but since my chef's knife sees more nakiri-work, I figured that's what I'd buy instead.
 
Resharpened the paring knife last night. Used the manufacturer's bevel and it's just way too thick. Takes a very sharp and polished edge with minimal effort, but you'll never mistake it for a Shun paring knife.

The Nakiri, also with a curiously thick edge, is growing on me. Will probably rebevel it for an edge-profile closer to my Shun and Forschner chef knives, but even with the thick edge, it's lots of fun, even when used on meats instead of veggies.
 
Hey Thom. I think you should put some sort of disclaimer when you discuss "thickness".
Like ("Remember, this is Thom talking")
Or change your handle to TsotksstcT"("The shadow of the knife should start the cut Thom") :D

My first Japanese style kitchen knives were the Tojiro Gyuto and Santoku. I was astounded by the order of magnitude slicing ability over my old western style knives. Another pleasant surprise was the toughness and the edge retention of these two knives. I'm thinkin of taking the angle down a little further. Maybe about 25% of an OTA (Optimal Thom Angle). Those Tojiro's are a great bargain and Koki is great to deal with. I'm lookin for a cleaver as my next purchase. Whatcha think about the Deba for a cleaver. :p :)
 
Interesting to complain about thickness (over) in such knives. Can you get any measurements?

-Cliff
 
I'll caliper the shoulders tonight and try to get some pics. The paring knife is definitely the steeper-edged of the two. Cut up some plastic quart bottles with the nakiri last night, but could only score and shave the plastic with the parer.
 
smegs,

The Shun Elite knives I have were perfect out of the box. No need to thin them for a pleasing cutting experience. That said, the Tojiros are a steal and Koki is the man.
 
smegs,

The Shun Elite knives I have were perfect out of the box. No need to thin them for a pleasing cutting experience. That said, the Tojiros are a steal and Koki is the man.
I'll have to pick up a couple of those shuns one of these days. I was serious about the Deba as a light chopper.
 
They look like some nice knives for the money, and I'm sure the D8XX will take care of any edge thickness issues. Maybe these are a good father's day idea for me to give to throw at my wife. Then I have to convince her not to toss them around in the sink and dishwaher. On second thought maybe I should stick with the axe thick no name kitchen set I have, as it causes no marital strife, though it bugs the hell out of me when I use them and have turn to my folders in frustration of the horrible cutting performance.

Mike
 
Just rebevelled the nakiri last night and it was problema nada operacion. Inspiration from Gunmike1 and Me2 (but not the Gimmegimmes) had me getting the edge as sharp as could be.

My plastic calipers are proving to be unreliable. :( On the plus side, someone offered me his steel Cabelipers. :D Alta graci!

Gunmike1,

Tojiro's DP Swedish Steel Wood Handled bubbies seem to be corrosion-resistant enough, so have at them and don't make a production about proper knife care. It's not like you don't like sharpening at every available chance is it? ;) You also have some Forschners, so try them, too. KAI/Kershaw makes a line of traditional-shaped Japanese cooking knives with bamboo-powdered handles (anti-microbial fun) that are priced to own. The Shun Wasabi line. I don't see how one could go wrong with the Tojiro, Forschner, or Shun stuff - especially if he has a D8XX and host of other abrasives like a Gunmike1 I know.
 
I'll have to unpack the Forchners, as they are boxed up from my recent move. They must have never been sharpened as the edges are thick and there is pretty much no distinct bevel. Sounds like fun time with the D8XX. Thanks for the shopping list, I will definately check them all out.

Mike
 
You guys are being pretty kind and understanding with Tojiro considering their chunkiness that is being described here. Seriously, a rebevel was necessary?:eek:

Followed by; No knee jerk reactions, public floggings, conspiracy theory's, or anything.:confused: :confused: :confused:

I believe there must have been a great movement in the force today.



Y'all have yourself a great Memorial Day weekend. :cool:
 
Thom, considering the patience you have for hand grinding I think you could be happy with a flat bar of steel. Lee Valley used to have a really nice Japanese style utility knife for dirt cheap, they replaced it with a higher end model, the cheap one was perfect in geometry.

-Cliff
 
You guys are being pretty kind and understanding with Tojiro considering their chunkiness that is being described here. Seriously, a rebevel was necessary?

Of course the nakiri needed a rebevel and the paring knife still does. They're not Shuns, you know! :grumpy:

Y'all have yourself a great Memorial Day weekend.

You, too. And speaking of Tojiros... ...will that new SG-2 Blur have an option for tip-down carry?

Thom, considering the patience you have for hand grinding I think you could be happy with a flat bar of steel. Lee Valley used to have a really nice Japanese style utility knife for dirt cheap, they replaced it with a higher end model, the cheap one was perfect in geometry.

Perfection is a Platonic concept. As an Aristotelian, I'm appalled. The nakiri didn't even require patience to rebevel; it thinned out on command (like the Spyderco brand Caly3 in ZDP going from 0.012" to 0.008", only faster).
 
The nakiri didn't even require patience to rebevel;

COnsidering that you have adjusted the primary grinds on knives with benchstones I think you have a pretty distorted viewpoint of grinding times. That being said, a 200 grit SiC waterstone tends to tame most small folders readily on edge regrinds, though I have little notion to do that of late after working with knives from Johnston, Wilson, etc. . Yeah they will cut decent but the maintaince is high. Personally I would just have Krein or Wilson regrind them all, even on the cheap ones it is worth it. The cutting ability will increase many to one and the maintaince is then trivial. I am getting Wilson to regrind my 10V blade because the edge bevel has climbed significantly over 0.010" . Now I would like to see you try to adjust the primary on that with a benchstone, I got bored on a belt sander.

-Cliff
 
Yeah Cliff, Krein's 60 grit belts can really save you the time and headaches with major regrinds. It is also nice that he can grind it to whatever thickness you desire, and the blades come out looking great, especially the ones that I've made real ugly with flat to the stone work. All that for $35, which is a steal when you consider the time, effort, and wear to your carpal tunnels and abrasives that you save. Considering his time and expensive belts Krein is using it is hard to imagine he is making huge profits from the regrinds, but I sure appreciate it. I'd imagine that 10V blade is worth paying a lot of money to get reground, as you'll probably burn more money in belts and stones than it would cost to have Wilson just regrind it for you. That being said minor adjustments on small folders that start out pretty thin can go fast on a DMT D8XX, and the stone is capable of major reprofiles if you put the time and effort in, but the convenience of a Krein grind is hard to beat. And when the knife starts out really thick (say .030" bevel thickness) it is a no brainer for me to send it off for a regrind to get the thickness more to my liking, as all I will do is spend a few hours killing my wrists and still not getting the results a good professional regrind will give you.

Mike
 
Krein regrinds kitchen knives? Hmmm....

I've got a cheapie set of Wusthof/Trident/Solingen whatevers from way back as a wedding present, and actually like them because they're cheap. They suffer greatly at the hands of family and friends. I couldn't bear to watch a good knife get tossed into a sink.

Plus, I'm reaching saturation on my collection. If I start getting kitchen knives, well, once you start down the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny. I can't believe it's been 30 years since I've seen that on the silver screen...
 
I've got a cheapie set of Wusthof/Trident/Solingen whatevers from way back as a wedding present...

Quite frankly, instead of recommending the really expensive knives, I would recommend a decent set of inexpensive ones and a regrind from Krein. The cutting performance would be higher, the cutting lifetime would be higher, the edge durability would be higher (thinner edge means more obtuse angle at the same level of cutting ability) and resharpening is trivial. The cost of a inexpensive production+regrind would be far under a decent high level production let alone custom. If I was Krein I would start promoting this strongly and hire an apprentice to do the regrinding. It isn't an exaggeration to note that a $10 Byrd with a Krein regrind will easily outcut a Sebenza and keep doing so for a long time as the edge lifetime is much higher. This of course is nothing new, I was part of a group discussing it on rec.knives ten years ago. Still now there is far too much hype on cutting ability being linked to steel.

And when the knife starts out really thick (say .030" bevel thickness) it is a no brainer for me to send it off for a regrind to get the thickness more to my liking, as all I will do is spend a few hours killing my wrists and still not getting the results a good professional regrind will give you.

You can do it on a small sander, but you really want nice belts and a wider belt to do it efficiently if you are going to flatten the primary. The other measures such as relief grinds are just bandaid solutions. It is better than leaving the bevel obtuse, but doesn't compare to proper primary grinds. Thom's post is interesting as in general the japanese knives are known for the complete opposite. There are some with obtuse edges which are made for heavy fish cutting, but it is hard to imagine a use for such a bevel on a paring knife especially in general when the Japanese tend to use high edge stability steels. How much are these knives anyway?

-Cliff
 
WOW! It is very odd to see looks mentioned as a benefit from a pro regrind from those who continually comment that looks don’t matter to them. Another very well thinly ground brand is Mac. Probably my Favorite kitchen knife right now is the Mac I have. Tojiro is on my short to try list, and I’m a little surprised to read they are on the thicker side. Thom you get any measurements on them?
 
I don't dare re-grind our present knives, even though they're not treated well, they were wedding presents. I'll probably take Jeff Clark's advice and hit the thrift stores or rummage sales, get some cheapies, and send them off to Tom Krein. Great idea!
 
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