Tom Williams: about knives, about Camillus, about himself

February 12, 2013

>>> Hello, Tom!
>>> I've got a few more questions.
>>> What models of Camillus knives were produced at the Western factory in Colorado?
>>> ***

Vit,
Camillus Cutlery Co. purchased the Western knife brand in 1991. At that time the Western Cutlery Co. located in Colorado closed and no longer made any knives. From 1991 and later all Western knives were made at the Camillus factory in Camillus, New York.
***

Tom
 
February 15, 2013

>>> Hello, Tom!
>>> I bought on eBay Camillus knife with a bonus - a lot of information materials.
>>> Among them, I found some stickers with the Camillus logo and two metal stickers "Camillus Cutlery Company Salutes the US Armed Forces 1941-1991"
>>> For which they were intended?

Vit,
The brass plaques engraved "Camillus Cutlery Company Salutes the U.S. Armed Forces 1941-1991" were included with the 50th anniversary knives that we made that were packaged in a woden display case. The knives were reproductions of WWII knives that had blued blades with a gold etching. The brass plaque was packaged in a plastic bag with a brochure "Camillus goes to war" and a typed note about the knives were coated in oil for protection while being shipped and may require additional oiling to protect the blades. I have enclosed a scan of this package.
***
Last year my friend Wallace Rockwell (who worked with me at Camillus) and myself bought 4 truck loads of catalogs, boxes, knife brochures, display cases, etc. and we were offering an assortment of Camillus literature, catalogs, ad sheets, etc. on Ebay for $19.95. You may have bought one of these assortments of Camillus literature from someone that bought one of our assortments. I also have a roll with several hundred of the Camillus decals. I have attached a scan of one of them. I have also included a photo of several of the special knives that Camillus made commemorating the anniversary of WWII. These knives were either sold individually or in sets in a wooden display case with the brass plaques.
***
I went to see the fire at the Camillus factory yesterday. It is very sad to see the old knife factory in ruins. The original Charles Sherwood building from 1894 is gone. My mother worked in that building when she started working at Camillus in the 1940's. A friend of mine sent me several photos of the fire. Would you like to see them?

Tom


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February 16, 2013

Vit,
Here are some of the photos. I have more that I will be sending to you.

Tom


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February 16, 2013

Vit,
Here are several photos of the buildings that were demolished after the fire. The other building that was not burned is where I worked starting in 1974. I worked in the back of the building on the first floor where I packed knives and shipped them to customers. That was one of my first jobs at Camillus that I did until 1979.

Tom


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February 16, 2013

Vit,
***
During all the time that I worked at Camillus and have been collecting Camillus knives I have acquired some special or one of a kind knives. I have many knives that were given to me by special customers. One of my customers was Mr. Adrian Harris who owned Tennessee Knife Works and made the Colonel Coon knives. We made parts for his company and he assembled and finished the knives at his shop in Tennessee. Every year he would come to Camillus to order knife parts and he always brought a special knife for me. When he came to Camillus I would spend the day with him and we would talk about knives and in the afternoon we would go out to a local restaurant for a nice lunch. He was one of the nicest people that I ever met in the knife business. I have the knives that he gave me as well as several knives that he gave to my mother. Mr. Harris also wrote a book about knife repair many years ago. If you are interested in the Colonel Coon knives I can send you some photos and other information that I have on this brand.

Tom
 
February 18, 2013

Vit,
***
When I worked at Camillus I also had some special knives made from the model #11 lock back knife. I bought several Harley Davidson motorcycle emblems and had them installed in the knife handle where there would have been an animal figure. I also had the Harley Davidson gold wing emblem glued to the handle of the model #864 Silver Sword knife. I knew just about everybody that worked at Camillus and they would do special favors for me. I was given many free knives when I worked at Camillus and one time the president of the company had a complete knife display panel with 40-50 knives that was returned to the factory because all the handles were faded from the sun. The president of the company gave me the whole panel with the knives and I still have it in my collection. When I worked in the sales department I always carried a special knife with my name or initials engraved on the knife so I had something to show to my customers.
Many years ago a company that does special etching on knives sent a sample of a Buck knife blade with a beautiful deep etching of an Indian motorcycle to Camillus to show us the special work that they could do on knives. I only had the blade for a Buck model #110 knife and my mother knew the people that owned Buck Knives and she asked them to install the blade in a knife for me. I still have that Buck knife that I have owned for more than 30 years. I will try to find it and I will send you a photo.
I have several Colonel Coon knives that were given to me by Mr. Adrian Harris. We made the knife parts for Mr. Harris and he assembled and finished the knives at his shop in Tennessee. Once a year Mr. Harris came to Camillus to order knife parts. Colonel Knife Co. in Rhode Island also made knife parts for him. I have attached a photo of a Colonel Coon knife made in 1980 for MULE DAY, which was a special day of celebration in Tennessee. Mr. Harris engraved my name on this knife before he gave it to me. Every time he came to Camillus he always gave me one of his knives. I have more knives but they are stored in a large display case.
The second photo shows some of the knives that were given to my mother, Angie Williams. She was given knives by her customers like Buck Knives and other knife companies.
The third and fourth attached photos show a knife that was handed out by Mr. Albert Baer, who owned the Imperial and Schrade knife companies. His daughters and grandchildren owned Camillus Cutlery Co. Mr. Baer would give these knives with his name to customers instead of a business card.
The last photo shows a deer head with large antlers that is a tie pin. Mr. Sid Bell gave me this tie pin and he made all the pewter and gold animal inserts for the Camillus American Wildlife knives.

Tom

p.s. I have also included a photo of a display that I am making that shows all the parts of a whittler's knife. I am making displays of several knives so knife collectors can see what the individual parts of a knife look like. I made a display last year of a MC-1 Paratrooper's knife that had all the parts of the knife mounted in a glass front display case. I will send you some photos when I finish the knife displays.


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February 19, 2013

Vit,
If you are interested in the Camillus American Wildlife knives I can send you some information.

The American Wildlife knives were very popular and the models #10 and #11 very big sellers. We also used these knives for special customers and put custom emblems in the handles. We took the model #11 knife and had a special emblem for the New York State Police and placed the custom emblem in the handle. We also made a lot of special knives with custom emblems in the handles for customers such as NAPA (a large company that sold automotive parts), Timberjack (a company that made large equipment for harvesting logs), John Deere tractors and many other customers. You can see some of these knives being offered on Ebay.

Tom
 
February 24, 2013

Vit,
I previously mentioned the Colonel Coon knives to you. Col. Coon knives were made by Mr. Adrian Harris who owned the Tennessee Knife Works in Columbia, Tennessee. Camillus Cutlery Co. and the Colonial Knife Co. made the knife parts for Mr. Harris and then he assembled and finished the knives at his knife shop in Tennessee. Once a year Adrian came to Camillus to order knife parts. I always enjoyed the time when he came to Camillus. He was one of the nicest people in the knife business that I ever met. When he came to Camillus he always brought a knife for me and my mother. I would spend the day with him at the Camillus factory taking his order for knife parts and he would show me some of the special work that he did on his knives. We would meet in the conference room in the morning, the president of Camillus took Adrian on a tour through the factory and then we all went out to a local restaurant for a nice lunch.


Adrian would show me how he did special work on the bone handles with a torch to give the bone some nice color. He had a special way of marking his knives so you could tell if you had a geniune Colonel Coon knife. He was a hard working man and he was very intellegent. In addition to running his knife business he also worked as an engineer at a large corporation named Monsanto. He developed a special etching process that he sold to CASE Cutlery Co. in Pennsylvania. Adrian wrote a book in 1982 about knife repair. It is very well written and shows you how to make or repair a knife. In the book you can see how a knife part is made, installing handles, sharpening, finishing and explains all the parts of a knife and how they work. I have attached a scan of the cover of Adrian's book and the note that he wrote to my mother when he gave her a copy of his book on June 21, 1982.

I am also including photos of several Colonel Coon knives, belt buckles and other items. My mother recently gave me the Colonel Coon belt buckle with the racoon on a white background and she said she has had this for 30 years. This belt buckle is beautiful and is now displayed in a wooden case with many other items that I received as gifts from Adrian. Adrian is no longer in the knife business and I believe that Smoky Mountian Knife Works now owns the Colonel Coon brand.

Some of the knife websites, like All About Pocket Knives (AAPK), have a special section just for Colonel Coon knife collectors. I stay in contact with Tanya Hinch who has a large collection of Colonel Coon knives and she helps organize knife shows for this brand. If you have an opportunity look at some of the Colonel Coon knives and you will see how nice these knives are.

Tom

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Edited my text to reflect the input/corrections below my post...9/9/2014

Again, did the best I could.
Waited a while to see if someone else did it as I didn't want to keep all the fun for myself. :D :rolleyes: :D

The following is the best interpretation of the handwriting that I can make. Please provide corrections to me if you reinterpret something I put in or if you know what something means.

"?" inserted for data I could not interpret.

Some shorthand word changes and interpretations ::
I tried to stay true to the upper case vs lower case in transposing, but I probably didn’t comply 100%
I expanded BLK to BLACK, DEL to Delrin
B.S.A and BSA stand for Boy Scouts of America

Edited this in:
Br = Brass
N/S = Nickel Silver
M.S. = Mark Side
B/S = Bolster Scale
(125) = Material Thickness .125"

Assuming (125) refers to blade thickness of .125",

(120) would refer to a blade thickness of .120"


Anything in Bold/Italics - I could not interpret it completely and put the letters I could read along with “?”s.
Edit 9/9/2014 to incorporate the inputs.

Tried to format it (columnize the date), but BFs editor strips out extra spaces :(


February 5, 2013

Vit,
I looked through my records and I found some information for you concerning the Camillus #14 and #5779 knife patterns. Both of these patterns are very similar.

I have attached two pages from a log book for the S-Cards that show the #5779 pattern was used for the first time in 1984. Before this this time the 4 blade camp and utility knives would have used the #14 pattern. The S-Cards were used up until 1988 then this system was no longer used and all records were computerized. Unfortunately, when the computerized records were no longer needed that information was deleted.

I located three drawings that show the component parts of the #14 pattern knives. Please note that a #14 pattern knife can have 1 or more blades.

I am going to find more information for you about these patterns. Perhaps Phil Gibbs would know the difference between these two patterns. I do know that many of the old #14 pattern knives were changed to the newer #5779 pattern during the 1980's.

Tom


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Camillus S-Card 5779

S-2719 5779/4 Br & N/S Plain w/ hole Brown Stag Handle 1/3/84
B.S.A. Emblem Imperial Knife Co. #1996

S-2720 5779/4 Br & N/S Ring w/ hole Black Stag Delrin Handle 1/3/84
Shield "Scout Be Prepared Imperial Knife Co.
BSA #611

S-2721 5779/5 Br & N/S Plain No Hole Ivory Delrin Handles 1/3/84
B.S.A. Emblem Imperial Knife Co. #1046

S-2766 5779/5 Br & N/S Black Delrin Stag B.S.A. Emblem 2/11/85
Three Pin Imperial #1046 B.S.A.

S-2778 5779/4 Shadow Handle Delrin Br (120) Hot 6/19/85
Stamp M.S. Handle B.S.A. #1045

S-2780 5779/4 Br & N/S Br Stag Handle B.S.A. Shield 8/6/85
Three Pin B.S.A. #1996

S-2794 5779/4 Shadow Handle Delrin Red (120) 4/1/86
Hot Stamp M.S. B.S.A. #1045

S-2806 5779/5 Saw Brass & Brass B/S (125) 6/5/86
Fibron Handle Sears #95210

S2847 R4466 2 blades (5773) A10 7/87
Engraved A15
Sheaths A16

S2851 /4 Girl Scouts 6/87
S2855 Rem R4 Utility 7/87
S2857 BSA 1046 SS 7/87
S2882 BSA 1096 SS 3/88
S2885 #99 in SS 1/88
S2890 Rem 4466 Bone 2/88
S2900 Kabar 1152R in SS 6/88
S2905 Case 640045R in SS 6/88
S2906 BSA 1045 Red in SS 5/89
 
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S-2778 5779/4 Shadow Handle Delrin Br (120) H?? 6/19/85
Stamp M.S. Handle B.S.A. #1045
(Hot)

S-2794 5779/4 Shadow Handle Delrin Red (120) 4/1/86
H?? Stamp M.S. B.S.A. #1045
(Hot)


S-2806 5779/5 Sa?? Brass & Brass B/S (125) 6/5/86
Fibron Handle S???? #95210
(After 5779/5 - Saw)
(After Fibron Handle - Sears)
 
Many thanks to zzyzzogeton and RickR for the translation. I used to ask Tom about it, but he was busy, and then probably forgot about it.

May 26, 2013

Vit,
Sorry for taking a long time to type these documents for you. I have the last page of the #5779 pattern knives for you today. This page reads:

5779

52905 CASE 640045R in SS (Stainless Steel) 6/88
52906 BSA 1045 Red in SS (Stainless Steel) 5/89
I will be busy this week and I will try and get the other 2 pages done for you by the end of the week.

Tom
 
More a questions - what is meant "Br & N/S Plain w/Hole", "M.S. B.S.A.", "Brass B/S (125)"?
 
Br = Brass
N/S = Nickel Silver
M.S. = Mark Side
B/S = Bolster Scale
(125) = Material Thickness .125"
Not Sure exactly sure what the "Plain w/Hole" would mean.
 
So it looks like we are down to figuring out what "Plain No hole" and "Ring with Hole" means.

Did these knives ever come with a lanyard hole or with no bail? The only thing I can think of for these entries to be made was to distinguish these two entries from the "standard" knives.

Could "Plain No Hole" mean a version with neither a lanyard hole OR a bail and then, by extension, "Ring with Hole" would be a version where BOTH the bail and a lanyard hole were present?

I've never collected Camillus folders and am generally clueless about them, so I don't know what variations exist.
 
Pattern #5779 it is the standard scout knives pattern, which can have a different configuration of the blades.

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And I've never seen it with lanyard hole.
 
January 2, 2014

Hello Vit,
Good to hear from you and a Happy New Year.

It has been very busy hear and I am getting ready for another year. I have been getting my knife collection organized. I have one room in my house where I keep all the old Camillus records, photos and knives. Collecting Camillus items for about 40 years and still finding new items in this area and on the Internet. Last year my friend Wallace and I were able to buy approximately 150 new blades that were offered at a local indoor flea market. The year before that we found and purchased 4 pickup truck loads of advertising material, display cases, knife boxes and other items from a local dealer that bought all these items at the Camillus auctions.

I have been sorting through everything and decided to keep mostly the Camillus related items. The Imperial/Schrade sales and advertising material is going to 2 collectors that specialize in that brand and have agreed to share the information with fellow knife collectors. I have a 3' X 5' engraving of the Camillus factory buildings that hung on the wall in the old Sherwood/Camillus knife shop for many years that will be going to the Maxwell Memorial Library in the village of Camillus. The library is getting the original and a digital scan will be made for the Camillus Historical Society that will hang in the Camillus Town Hall building. The picture is going to have an engraved plaque that reads "Donated by the former Camillus Cutlery Co. employees". I want this picture to be on display in the village for former employees, their families and visitors to this area to able to see now that many of the original cutlery buildings are gone. The engraving dates to about 1915 and the artist exaggerated the actual size of the knife factory buildings. Only the original Sherwood Cutlery and later Camillus Cutlery buildings built in 1915 or earlier are shown. An original canal boat can be seen in the picture and the later 1925 building that is still standing had not been built.

A friend of mine that worked at Camillus for many years recently gave me this photo of the February 2013 fire at the Camillus knife factory. This will give you an idea of the intensity of the fire. All the building debri from that fire has been cleaned up and I am waiting to see any new work being done on the project.

***

Tom


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January 22, 2014

Vit,
***
I am attaching 2 old post cards and 3 photos of the Camillus knife factory. The village of Camillus is located on Nine Mile Creek that runs next to the factory and provided water to the knife shop for grinding the knife parts. I was in the village the other day and it is sad to see much of the cutlery's buildings are gone since the fire. They have cleaned up all the wood, concrete and building materials and just the floor of the old building is left.
This Saturday we are having a reunion of former Camillus employees and we are meeting in a restaurant behind Camillus Cutlery Co. that was originally built in the early 1900's by Mr. Kastor and was used as a dormitory for German cutlers brought from Europe to work at the knife shop. We usually meet once a year.

Tom


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January 30, 2014

Vit,
***
The Remington knives were "replicas" or copies of old Remington patterns. That means they are duplicates and are made to be the same size and shape but different handle materials were used. Some Remington replica knives were made with bone handles like the originals and others were made with Delrin handles. Delrin was used for the handles because it is more durable and is not as fragile as bone. Delrin handles also reduced the cost of making the knife. Bone has to be cut, dyed, drilled and shaped when it is used for knife handles increasing the cost.
I remember when we started making the Remington bullet knives in 1982 that was a copy of an old Remington pattern knife.
We only made some Remington knives in the Silver Bullet edition and I think that they went to Smoky Mountain Knife Works. Camillus hired Bob Stumpf who worked for Remington and was sent to Smoky Mountain Knife Works after Camillus bought 50% of SMKW. I worked with Bob for several years and he passed away many years ago when he was in his 50's.
I will have to get you answers on your other questions.

Tom
 
February 1, 2014

Hello Vit,
***

You are correct about Camillus making the first Remington reproduction bullet knives in 1972. When I said "when we started making the Remington bullet knives in 1982" I meant that the knives were made and shipped directly to Remington Arms. The first Remington bullet knife was made in January of 1972 and I recall that Blackie Collins obtained permission from Remington to make an authorized bullet knife reproduction but the customer was either "Specialty Weapons" or "Weapons Specialty". I do not remember the exact name of the customer but an agreement was made between Blackie Collins and Remington to have the knives made for another customer. I use the 1982 date for when Camillus started making knives for Remington. The first Remington bullet knife that was made in 1982 was for a special gun promotion that Remington offered their gun dealers. The knives proved to be very popular so Remington decided to get back into the knife business. In 1940 Remington sold off their knife division to PAL Cutlery in Plattsburgh, New York.
I have had a couple of conversations with Phil Gibbs about the first Remington authorized bullet knife made in 1972. I remember seeing the Camillus S-Card (S-2511) for this knife but I do not have the card. Today I asked my mother, Angie Williams, who handled the special customers at Camillus and she remembered that Blackie Collins got permission from Remington to have a Remington bullet knife made for a special customer. My mother is 87 years old and worked for Camillus from 1947 through 2000. She took care of our special customers such as Buck, KABAR, CASE, Sears-Roebuck, Boy Scouts of America, etc.
I have attached a photo of a small Camillus knife that was assembled from parts that I bought at the September 2007 auction at the Camillus factory. I bought a cabinet that was full of old knife parts and there was one box that had approximately 50 of these small knives that had not been assembled. The parts for this knife were probably made in the 1950's and had been stored in the cabinet for approximately 60 years. This is one of the smallest knives made by Camillus.

Tom


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