toothpick history

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groverino

Joined
Sep 24, 2006
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I've read a bit about toothpick style folders being used in the south in the past for fighting. Does anyone know of any documentation out there on this subject? Thanks
 
it's mostly urban legend. It is nonsensical, as many folks carried fixed blades.
 
i saw a pic- i THINK at alliance martial arts- of an alledgedly 19th century knife that looked like a moderatly sized toothpic, but could be swung (out on a pivot) to almost double its length.
Essentialy it was a REALLY big pocketknkife with the blade so long it potruded at 'rest'.
The handle acted like a 'sheeth' i sopose, but any strain was on a weak looking pivot....mabye like a lot of 'combat' knives it was a marketing gimick?
 
AGR is pretty inventive in his history. Usually toothpicks are about 4" blades, with thin profiles, not the most stable slipjoint to bring to a knife fight. The thin blade limits the strength of the backspring. Some of its spanish cousins (navajos?) have locked blades, but generally not toothpicks (AGRs locked ones are an abberation). Now I know from personal experience, many southern people, and New Yorkers (yes the big apple) use toothpicks as fishing knives or for small game.

Now, as an mob assination knife...sure sounds good, looks like i've got a story :)
 
I lost this post yesterday; laci szabo has a similar design, the RAD. I'm guessing it was available historically at some point.
 
Stven Dick in his book "The Working Folding Knife" on page 46-47 says the knife was 1st called a Fish or Fishing knife. The two bladed model was a long clip blade (for filleting) and the second blade was the scaler/hook disgourger. He says they grew in popularity before the 1960's due to their large size (5") and low price. Then he says they were re-marketed to the urban market as "Texas Tickler" , "Saturday Night Special" and "Dixie Switch". He says in that environment they were "considered" a tool of the street-thug. Doesn't say that they were necessarily, just that they had that reputation. He says they lost popularity in the 1960's (as fishing knives) due to the introduction of Finnish filet knives.

I mention in passing that last summer my lovely wife and sweet boy were on a touring vacation in Missouri. We stopped by the George Washington Carver museum on the land where he was born. Well one of the pictures they had of him was while he was touring in a car. He stopped frequently to examine the trees close up. In this picture he was removing a small sample from this tree he was examining and he was using his pocket knife to do it. It was this big honkin, dark handled, shiny bolstered, 5" or better Fishing/Texas Toothpick knife. So they were obviously owned by men in the south before the 1960's.
 
toothpicks.gif


Toothpicks!

I think we cannot apply todays standards (blade thickness, lock strength, size, etc) to yesteryear's knives.
The toothpick, while not an ideal "fighting" knife, could have been used as one.
The Crapistanian "007" knife was a poor knife overall and a poor "fighting" knife, but still enough to get legislation passed in NYC banning gravity knives.
We all know about "Switchblades" and they (examples of the time when the law was passed) weren't stellar examples of "fighting" knives either.
So could the toothpicks have been used as AG sez?
Why not?
But we don't know for sure.
 
I think the reason the toothpick has allegedly put so many southern knife duellists into the ground is due to the reason that it may have been the knife a man carried for work in the day and into the saloons after. the same would go for the hawkbill style pruning knife, and the long, stiletto like melon tester.

pete

edited- here is a link to a thread on some other traditional folders with a bloody past! http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375908&page=2
 
Don't know nothin' 'bout Southern fighting styles. However, it seems the toothpick style draws much from old navaja/clasp knives of days gone by, some of which seem to have nasty reputations.
 
Pete1977 said:
I think the reason the toothpick has allegedly put so many southern knife duellists into the ground is due to the reason that it may have been the knife a man carried for work in the day and into the saloons after. the same would go for the hawkbill style pruning knife, and the long, stiletto like melon tester.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375908&page=2
Click to expand...
That makes sense to me.
Now there's a thread for the prac/tac forum...
Hawkbill vs Toothpick
:D
 
Thanks for all the replies. I've always liked the toothpick style, and I find this very interesting.
 
groverino said:
I've read a bit about toothpick style folders being used in the south in the past for fighting. Does anyone know of any documentation out there on this subject? Thanks
Click to expand...

Instead of listening to the know-it-alls here and elsewhere or looking for documentation, why do you not talk to people in their 70s and 80s about what their uncles and fathers carried day to day. It was not fixed blades. Ask people who grew up in East Texas,South Arkansas, Mississippi, and Louisiana and you will know the history that so upsets mr. brownshoe, God knows why.
 
There used to be plenty of 5+ inch toothpics that were produced and the blade has nothing to do with backspring strength.:rolleyes:

I think Mr Brownshoe is quite confused on the matter.
 
I use a S&M 5" toothpick all the time. Compared to an S&M english jack of about the same length, the backspring on the toothpick is thinner and not as strong. The English Jack is difficult to close, the toothpick is not. This S&M toothpick is the 2000 version and is actually a little thicker than my Queen toothpick which is even easier to close. If you were to fight with a slipjoint, there are better choices than a toothpick. The backspring is fully functional for use as a utility knife, skinner or fish knife, but IMHO not for fighting.

I was raised on the Mason Dixon line spending a lot of time everywhere in the US. Many southerners like to believe that certain things are southern customs and not American customs (like cornbread and fried chicken). I've seen toothpicks in fishing kits in the Middle Atlantic and New England states and in the South and Midwest. I believe AGR calls his small one a California clip blades, so maybe it's a western thing :) So, in my personal experience the toothpick is an American knife. If the toothpick originated as a spanish design, then its more likely a texas and california knife not a southern knife, unless it came up from Florida :)

AGR, your homespun stories about knife fights and boots with pockets for toothpicks are probably true and make great advertisement copy, but anectdotes are not history. I've looked at a lot of toothpicks because I like them. The lockblade ones are not common with the exception being fishing knives that use the brass liner lock with the tab. Again, IMHO yours with the liners are unique enough to be an abberation (abberation means a deviation from the norm, it's not a negative term.)
 
brownshoe said:
I use a S&M 5" toothpick all the time. Compared to an S&M english jack of about the same length, the backspring on the toothpick is thinner and not as strong. The English Jack is difficult to close, the toothpick is not. This S&M toothpick is the 2000 version and is actually a little thicker than my Queen toothpick which is even easier to close. If you were to fight with a slipjoint, there are better choices than a toothpick. The backspring is fully functional for use as a utility knife, skinner or fish knife, but IMHO not for fighting.

I was raised on the Mason Dixon line spending a lot of time everywhere in the US. Many southerners like to believe that certain things are southern customs and not American customs (like cornbread and fried chicken). I've seen toothpicks in fishing kits in the Middle Atlantic and New England states and in the South and Midwest. I believe AGR calls his small one a California clip blades, so maybe it's a western thing :) So, in my personal experience the toothpick is an American knife. If the toothpick originated as a spanish design, then its more likely a texas and california knife not a southern knife, unless it came up from Florida :)

AGR, your homespun stories about knife fights and boots with pockets for toothpicks are probably true and make great advertisement copy, but anectdotes are not history. I've looked at a lot of toothpicks because I like them. The lockblade ones are not common with the exception being fishing knives that use the brass liner lock with the tab. Again, IMHO yours with the liners are unique enough to be an abberation (abberation means a deviation from the norm, it's not a negative term.)
Click to expand...

the knife in a man's pocket is the knife that is going to be used in the heat of passion. I wouldn't choose a slipjoint to go into a knife fight, but plenty of people have died at the edge of a straight razor, with no spring at all.


pete
 
I have never seen Mr. Russell's website, nor have I read what he has written about the toothpick, but I do know, from his post he is correct about the toothpick being used down here. I have lived in Mississippi/Louisiana my whole life, as did my grandfathers. When my grandpa died in 2000 at the ripe old age of 90, my daddy got his few knives that he had and he in turn gave them to me. Among those knives is an ancient Toothpick that he called his "Barn Dance knife." I remember him telling us when we were younger that they used to carry those toothpicks when they were headed to the Saturday night dances, in case they needed them. He also carried an old Saturday Night Special, so I don't know why he would have need that knife, but he did carry it when he went " a courtin".
 
hooooWee! it's getting heated in here! Great discussion. Just as a clarification, The original poster asked "in the South" which can mean a pretty wide ranging area, and "in the past" which could be from pre-revolutionary times forward. Also, "people" can mean anyone from Riverboat gamblers to Clergymen. I will admit that I may have interpreted the question incorrectly, and I will Defer to those who have been around longer than me. and if you've never gotten A. G.'s catalog, you should at least visit the website, or you're missing out!
 
I'd love to talk to some older folks in Mississippi, Texas, etc. but i live in Nova Scotia, Canada. I'm a long ways off. The time frame that i was thinking was in the first half of the 20th century. I was a history major in school and i like knives, so I find this very interesting. I've always liked the toothpick style, and actually have a cheapo Rough rider on the way. I plan to start collecting and buying better quality, but it's a start. thanks again to all who replied. I didn't mean to start a fight. Also, to AG Russell, your "Grandad's Toothpick" is a beauty. hope to buy one soon.
 
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