Tough steels for thin blades

[RX-79G]

The usual thinking is that big thick blades are the ones that get made with shock resistant steels, and the smaller ones get the more wear resistant steels. The recent wave of 80CrV2 Scandi blades bucking this trend to a degree.


However, if you consider the best kind of general forest knife to be one of the thinner blade carvers, wouldn't it be better to use L6 or S5 for thinner blades that may have to take on harder roles? Survival, bushcraft, etc sometimes requires beating a small knife up to make up for the fact that it isn't a chopper. Since it is already a 1/8" or thinner blade, would it be worth a drop in wear resistance to go from something like 52100 to have a thin blade that is much more difficult to break?

I'm also unsure how 1080 compares in toughness to "tough" steels like the S series or 5160 - I can never find definitive information about how a "pure" fine grained marstenite compares to shock alloys. But 80CrV2, 1080, L6, S5 and 15N20 tempered to relatively high hardnesses (59-61?) seem like a better bet than greatly tempering down hypereutectoid steels or going with thick geometry, and should still hold a decent edge. In other words, perform very well as knives with a low likelihood of breaking despite a thin profile.

Thoughts?

 

[shqxk]

Scandi is actually saber grind with zero edge. Generally to hold that kind of edge we need fine grain steel with as least course carbide as possible at high hardness to hold that kind of edge. Because these kind of steel usually has high edge stability and most carbon steel are fit into this category. You will see most quality Scandinavian Bushcraft knife are mostly made of carbon steel since long time ago.

High carbide steel like S30V or D2 is a bad choice for this and what happened to the early run of Spyderco's Puuko is a good example on this.


Regrding the steel choice, the different between hypoeutectoid vs eutectoid steel given both properly heat treat would be much less than you expected even under lab test.

 

[Willie71]

For small blades that will be abused, it's hard to beat 15n20. 3v would be a good choice too, if cost isn't an issue. I'm testing a blade in z-wear right now, and it's much tougher than I thought it would be. I thought the edge would be chippy, but it isn't.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I have had superb results in .065" CPM-S35VN.

 

[RX-79G]

Scandi is actually saber grind with zero edge.

Actually, many Scandi grinds have a light secondary bevel. However, I wasn't referring the grind as much as 1/16" to 1/8" thick "hard use" blades preferred in Scandinavia and some bushcrafters.

3v would be a good choice too, if cost isn't an issue.

3V is very tough for a high wear resistant steel. But it isn't actually as tough as the medium carbon "tough steels".

I have had superb results in .065" CPM-S35VN.

You would compare S35VN with S5 or L6?



You can make an excellent small knife from many, many steels. What I was getting at was taking advantage of some particularly "indestructible" alloys to buy back some of the delicacy of thin grinds.

 

[Willie71]

My understanding is that 3v is about as tough as L6 with industry heat treat, but benefits from cryo/low temper. I think you need to get into the s series steels to get tougher, but that gives up a lot of edge holding.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

No, they are different birds. S35VN is a high alloy stainless thatis very tough and has great edge retention. You can't really compare it to a carbon steel. As far as performance, I would consider it equal or better. Here is an analysis graph of them.
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=S5, L6, S35VN&hrn=1&gm=0

 

[jdm61]

At 58 with the standard HT, 3V is tougher than L6 from what I have read.

My understanding is that 3v is about as tough as L6 with industry heat treat, but benefits from cryo/low temper. I think you need to get into the s series steels to get tougher, but that gives up a lot of edge holding.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

When heat treated for maximum toughness, 3V is between L6 and S7. There is no stainless steel that is close to the toughness of 3V.

When 3V is used on a knife, I prefer to give up toughness to get better edge holding.

Chuck

 

[ShannonSteelLabs]

This is very interesting.
I have used 3V on many different knives, both small and large. It it by far my favorite overall steel.
I made a machete/ copper hybrid out of .156 cpm 3V. I had it ground full high convex and had it heat treated for max toughness. (Not sure on actual HRC but i had it done at peters heat treating) the edge was pretty thin when i reprofiled it. It preformed exellently due to the thin grind. Bit deep into wood and could take a hell of a beating.
I plan on making a tomahawk but im trying to decide on L6 or S7 (3V is too expensive on a prototype)
Any recommendations?
This is a great thread btw.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Don Hanson III]

Thin is in if ya what it to Cut. I like W2 for this.

 

[jdm61]

L6 flat stock isn't all that cheap either. How thick do you plan to make it?

This is very interesting.
I have used 3V on many different knives, both small and large. It it by far my favorite overall steel.
I made a machete/ copper hybrid out of .156 cpm 3V. I had it ground full high convex and had it heat treated for max toughness. (Not sure on actual HRC but i had it done at peters heat treating) the edge was pretty thin when i reprofiled it. It preformed exellently due to the thin grind. Bit deep into wood and could take a hell of a beating.
I plan on making a tomahawk but im trying to decide on L6 or S7 (3V is too expensive on a prototype)
Any recommendations?
This is a great thread btw.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[ShannonSteelLabs]

L6 flat stock isn't all that cheap either. How thick do you plan to make it?

I plan on using 1/4 inch stock. Im shooting for max chopping performance. Thin but tough grind.

Colin Shannon
Shannon Steel Labs

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[ShannonSteelLabs]

I plan on using 1/4 inch stock. Im shooting for max chopping performance. Thin but tough grind.

Colin Shannon
Shannon Steel Labs

L6 flat stock isn't all that cheap either. How thick do you plan to make it?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[RX-79G]

My understanding is that 3v is about as tough as L6 with industry heat treat, but benefits from cryo/low temper. I think you need to get into the s series steels to get tougher, but that gives up a lot of edge holding.

I have found this kind of claim to be extremely difficult to validate. Especially since there are so many different ways to heat treat 3V, that it is difficult to tell whether the high toughness treatment provides decent edge holding or not. I think CPM tends to interchange those qualities in their charts.

And their charts conflict with themselves.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1390350-Are-Crucible-s-comparison-charts-nonsense


The other problem is that people talk about S series steels in general, but are mostly talking about S7. S5 is a very different alloy and I haven't seen any knives made of it to test.

 

[Willie71]

I have found this kind of claim to be extremely difficult to validate. Especially since there are so many different ways to heat treat 3V, that it is difficult to tell whether the high toughness treatment provides decent edge holding or not. I think CPM tends to interchange those qualities in their charts.

And their charts conflict with themselves.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1390350-Are-Crucible-s-comparison-charts-nonsense


The other problem is that people talk about S series steels in general, but are mostly talking about S7. S5 is a very different alloy and I haven't seen any knives made of it to test.

Do things your own way then. Stop asking questions if you think you know the answers.

 

[shqxk]

I have never seen a knife in S5 steel selling around since I joined BF. I can't even find the proper stock for knife making of it.

 

[JTknives]

I'm a big fan of 15n20, for the price it's hard to beat if you need thin stock. Really quite tough at high hardness levels compared to other carbon steels.

 

[shqxk]

I'm a big fan of 15n20, for the price it's hard to beat if you need thin stock. Really quite tough at high hardness levels compared to other carbon steels.

Yeah that why I want to give it a try. Would I reserve one of 15n20 box for the next available stock? I will pay the extra shipping cost to Thailand.

 

[RX-79G]

Do things your own way then. Stop asking questions if you think you know the answers.

I don't know why you are getting so aggressive, but pointing out that there are problems with the conventional wisdom is not the same as having all the answers.