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Tough transaction - Be careful

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russ25

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Just wanted to share a recent transaction that went bad with a fellow member. He listed a Large Regular BG42 in excellent condition with the exception of some snail trails. He was willing to work with me as I didn’t have that amount of funds set aside. I was thrilled. Matt was doing me right! So anyways he agreed to hold the knife until a certain day. I gathered the funds and sent them to him right away. I wanted to take care of this as quick as I could, heck the guy waited on me. When I went to send the money from my checking account the payment wouldn’t go through so I put it on a credit card until I could figure this out and not keep Matt waiting. So I sent the money and the deal was paid. When I got home I checked my account and saw there was a discrepancy. I called the credit card company and explained, and they told me it would be declined. Crap! So, I transferred the money to wife’s account and had her send a second payment for the knife. Contacted the seller and explained. He was fine and understood. Now the crappy part starts, Wouldn’t you know it the credit card paid the payment and the seller received the money twice!

Matt contacted me and said he received both, I asked if he would refund the one my wife sent? He said yes. About a week later he contacted me saying he was charged for the refund? About 75USD. Mentions it was an additional 30% when I asked him to help me understand this better. 30% is nowhere near 75USD and he agreed. We agreed to check with paypal and his bank so we could both understand this better. I did make it perfectly clear that I would pay the fees if he could help me understand why. My thinking is a refund is a refund, I have no control over the banks policy. Nevertheless, if I should pay the fees, I am happy too.

Then the next day I receive the knife I purchased from Matt. I was thrilled! Open it up and opened the knife and low and behold! I just paid 1250 bucks for a knife with blade play! My heart sank to say the least. I contacted Matt and explained about the knife and the condition I found it in. I was in no shape to talk about this then and there. I needed to cool down.

The next day(today), I contacted Matt to discuss the issues. He offered to pay shipping to CRK and to forgive the money he feels is owed to him for the refund. I feel this is a slap in the face. I asked for a refund of some money since the knife delivered is not an "excellent condition" knife. He offered one thing and sold another. Matt did say that he didn’t inspect the knife when he received it, just listed it for sale. I understand mistakes can happen; we are all human. But the issue is that this is not a 1200-dollar knife as advertised. I do not feel a refund of some money to make this right is asking too much.


Matt's response was basically NO. Sadly, I will take this as a learning experience and move on. I have no control over other people’s morals.


I am not hear to bash Matt at all. Matt and I have had several transactions together, all positive. And I still feel Matt is a good guy, but this one got away from him and he was not willing to make this right in my eyes. And just for the record we didn’t even discuss how much refund I felt I am entitled too.

I wish you all the luck Matt, Just not a happy camper with this transaction.

Russ
 
I would like to clarify this to the members of BladeForums and provide my honest perspective on the events that occurred before this thread becomes populated with responses. Here is the link to the thread here: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/large-bg42-regular-complete.1745895/

After agreeing to wait a week to receive the funds, I received a payment from Russ for the amount listed. After receiving incorrect information about the status of the payment and having already deposited the initial payment he had sent, I noticed that I had received funds from both Russ and his partner. Assuming that the first payment would not go through due to the aforementioned issues with the credit card, I proceeded to deposit the amount I received from Russ's partner. Upon discovering that the initial payment he had sent did in fact go through, I promptly contacted Russ notifying him that I received two payments and would have to issue a refund to either him or his partner.

The reason for waiting a week to message Russ about the discrepancy between the amount I received in Canadian and the amount I had to refund, which is due to Paypal's currency exchange rate, was because I had to first wait until the refund was processed, as its status was listed as "in progress". I would like to clarify this specifically: at no time did I mention 30%. My intent was not to overcharge Russ, in fact it was the opposite. Before contacting him, I researched possible explanations as to why this might occur as I didn't want to further charge him on an already expensive knife. Upon doing a quick search, the figure that I discovered was a potential 3% fee for currency conversion. I mentioned this to Russ, and we agreed to further inquire to Paypal about this as there was too many variables and we were both looking for an exact explanation.

Now to discuss the knife and the events that followed. The knife I received from a collector, and it was described to be in excellent condition with no issues. I received the knife and did not notice any issues when completing a quick inspection/observation. I stored it away in my collection, and it was only recently that I advertised it for sale as I found myself preferring other UG and CGG CRK variants as opposed to the knives with plain TI scales. I admit to not doing a thorough inspection of the knife in the sense that I did not specifically place force on the blade to check it for blade play. Since this was a 21 year old knife, and a rare one a that, I wanted to ensure that it remained in the exact condition in which I received it. The knife seemed in excellent condition from my quick inspection, and it was with that that I wrote the description of the for sale thread.

I was frankly quite surprised when I heard Russ's initial reaction to the knife, as this was not something I noticed before I stored it away in my collection. His concern which he stated was the issue of a slight amount of blade play on the 21 year old knife. I not only offered to waive the refund fee I was charged due to having received incorrect information, but I also offered to pay shipping both ways to CRK in order to address this relatively easy to fix issue. I've been a member on bladeforums for a long time, and always try to do my best to ensure that the customer is satisfied, as I feel that I have done in this case. I made a sincere offer to resolve the main issue of blade play through offering to pay shipping both ways, and waive the refund fee after receiving incorrect information as I felt bad about the scenario and didn't want Russ to have to pay an additional amount. I made it clear that I would do my best to make it right.

I was hoping that he and I would be able to resolve this on our own, and I would like to make it known that I have since written to Russ to propose that in addition to the previous offers I have made, I would also be able to include an additional compensation for both the hassle on his end and the time involved. I hope this response can provide the necessary clarification needed.
 
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Did you try taking it apart and cleaning it. Strange for a Sebenza to have blade play. May be just a little something off with someone reassembling it.
 
? How'd you pay? PayPal Refunds cost 0.00 for both parties. There's a button below the transaction to refund the payment.

russ25 said:
Matt did say that he didn’t inspect the knife when he received it, just listed it for sale.
Click to expand...
I'd have to call Bullshit on this assumption- He listed it for sale and is responsible for the condition represented.

From the For Sale Listing: Did I mention fecal matter?
Forester_01 said:
The knife is in excellent condition for being 21 years old. It has a very smooth action
Click to expand...
For $1200 I'd want a refund and be willing to file a Claim.
 
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Forester_01 said:
Now to discuss the knife and the events that followed. The knife I received from a collector, and it was described to be in excellent condition with no issues. I received the knife and did not notice any issues when completing a quick inspection/observation.

I admit to not doing a thorough inspection of the knife

The knife seemed in excellent condition from my quick inspection, and it was with that that I wrote the description of the for sale thread.

I've been a member on bladeforums for a long time, and always try to do my best to ensure that the customer is satisfied, as I feel that I have done in this case.
Click to expand...

^ This falls 100% on you, the seller! In your own word's, you openly admit, multiple times, not giving this Sebbie a "thorough inspection." :thumbsdown::thumbsdown:

Secondly, the customer (Buyer) here, isn't satisfied!!!

You haven't been a member here, "a long time!"

And lastly, you edited the sales thread to this transaction, just this very afternoon. Why?

braillediver said:
I'd have to call Bullshit on this assumption- He listed it for sale and is responsible for the condition represented.

From the For Sale Listing: Did I mention fecal matter?

For $1200 I'd want a refund and be willing to file a Claim.
Click to expand...

^ +1
If I were the OP (Russ), I would definitely be filing a dispute/claim with this seller & demand a full refund for a so called "collector's" knife, not in described condition.
And thank you for the head's up, on this very "shady" transaction, Russ! :thumbsup:
 
Seems to me the best thing to do for both parties would be to undo the deal and seller get the knife back and the buyer be made whole. I get mistakes happen but as the seller you are responsible for what you sell being what you advertise. If you made the mistake to not inspect the knife you should shoulder the responsibility to undo the deal and relist it with the pertinent information of the condition of the knife.

Selling rules state to be accurate in your descriptions. I won't speculate on anyone doing anything underhanded but just my opinion undo the whole deal and move on. Hope you two work it out.
 
Forester_01 said:
Thanks for the insight everyone. I recognize that it was my mistake in not thoroughly inspecting the knife. I have approached the buyer about a refund and am currently waiting to hear back.
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Glad to hear that, hopefully you'll be able to come to kind of resolution.

I am curious about something though... why would you edit the description of the knife today, long after the sale has been completed? Coincidence I suppose but your first edit was at the same time this thread was created... moderators have the ability to see all edited posts so I'm able to see what you've added to the description as well as the time of the edits.
 
Boru13 said:
Glad to hear that, hopefully you'll be able to come to kind of resolution.

I am curious about something though... why would you edit the description of the knife today, long after the sale has been completed? Coincidence I suppose but your first edit was at the same time this thread was created... moderators have the ability to see all edited posts so I'm able to see what you've added to the description as well as the time of the edits.
Click to expand...

Yes, the main reason behind that was to include details and information on the knife which Russ and I discussed privately. I felt it was necessary to incorporate that information once this feedback thread began.
 
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1. seller is responsible to accurately describe knife
2. editing the sale post after this post comes across as very shady, since others will obviously check it to see what you had represented at the time
 
You really don’t have to inspect the knife to know the knife has been taken apart. The lanyard isn’t original to the knife. Therefore, the knife was taken apart to install the lanyard pin.
Yeah, I saw that one and thought the price was too steep for it not being all original.
 
To me...it seems like a little bit of too much excitement on the buyers part. If I sent a payment with my credit card and saw a discrepancy, i would have contacted the buyer first to see if it actually went through, not sent a second payment. Also, not sure why you had to wait to “gather funds,” as you were able to send two payments. Hmmm...

That being said, the seller should have absolutely checked for bladeplay, however, he did state in the description that it was “how he received it.” I think it is weird that the buyer didnt ask about bladeplay directly. I always do this before purchasing a secondhand knife.

Unfortunately neither party is satisfied and I applaud the seller for offering a full refund.

On the buyers end, pretty crappy to start a thread AND leave negative feedback as I have not read that the seller told you to “pound sand.” Yet. That means that the transaction is still not finished and the negative feedback was premature.

Sucks that all this happened. Hopefully it gets resolved and both parties are satisfied.

ETA:The whole “we didnt even discuss what kind of refund was reasonable,” is hogwash.
If the seller wants to offer a partial refund he can. Its not a prerequisite. If you are unsatisfied, full refund and return to seller. Sounds to me like you just want some money off. You dang well know that if you send it to CRK they will make it right.
Seller...get your money back, send it to CRK yourself, and sell to someone else.

ET also A: I know neither buyer or seller personally, just my opinions and thoughts.
 
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Sharp & Fiery said:
To me...it seems like a little bit of too much excitement on the buyers part. If I sent a payment with my credit card and saw a discrepancy, i would have contacted the buyer first to see if it actually went through, not sent a second payment. Also, not sure why you had to wait to “gather funds,” as you were able to send two payments. Hmmm...

That being said, the seller should have absolutely checked for bladeplay, however, he did state in the description that it was “how he received it.” I think it is weird that the buyer didnt ask about bladeplay directly. I always do this before purchasing a secondhand knife.

Unfortunately neither party is satisfied and I applaud the seller for offering a full refund.

On the buyers end, pretty crappy to start a thread AND leave negative feedback as I have not read that the seller told you to “pound sand.” Yet. That means that the transaction is still not finished and the negative feedback was premature.

Sucks that all this happened. Hopefully it gets resolved and both parties are satisfied.

ETA:The whole “we didnt even discuss what kind of refund was reasonable,” is hogwash.
If the seller wants to offer a partial refund he can. Its not a prerequisite. If you are unsatisfied, full refund and return to seller. Sounds to me like you just want some money off. You dang well know that if you send it to CRK they will make it right.
Seller...get your money back, send it to CRK yourself, and sell to someone else.

ET also A: I know neither buyer personally, just my opinions and thoughts.
Click to expand...
Also add that the buyer started the thread and then disappeared, while the seller has been proactive in trying to come to a positive resolution. The buyer asked for a lot of concessions in the beginning, messed the whole thing up. The negative feedback is not warranted in this case imo. Mistakes happen and seller is trying to make the buyer whole.
 
Worldwatcher said:
Also add that the buyer started the thread and then disappeared, while the seller has been proactive in trying to come to a positive resolution. The buyer asked for a lot of concessions in the beginning, messed the whole thing up. The negative feedback is not warranted in this case imo. Mistakes happen and seller is trying to make the buyer whole.
Click to expand...
russ25 said:
Just wanted to share a recent transaction that went bad with a fellow member. He listed a Large Regular BG42 in excellent condition with the exception of some snail trails. He was willing to work with me as I didn’t have that amount of funds set aside. I was thrilled. Matt was doing me right! So anyways he agreed to hold the knife until a certain day. I gathered the funds and sent them to him right away. I wanted to take care of this as quick as I could, heck the guy waited on me. When I went to send the money from my checking account the payment wouldn’t go through so I put it on a credit card until I could figure this out and not keep Matt waiting. So I sent the money and the deal was paid. When I got home I checked my account and saw there was a discrepancy. I called the credit card company and explained, and they told me it would be declined. Crap! So, I transferred the money to wife’s account and had her send a second payment for the knife. Contacted the seller and explained. He was fine and understood. Now the crappy part starts, Wouldn’t you know it the credit card paid the payment and the seller received the money twice!

Matt contacted me and said he received both, I asked if he would refund the one my wife sent? He said yes. About a week later he contacted me saying he was charged for the refund? About 75USD. Mentions it was an additional 30% when I asked him to help me understand this better. 30% is nowhere near 75USD and he agreed. We agreed to check with paypal and his bank so we could both understand this better. I did make it perfectly clear that I would pay the fees if he could help me understand why. My thinking is a refund is a refund, I have no control over the banks policy. Nevertheless, if I should pay the fees, I am happy too.

Then the next day I receive the knife I purchased from Matt. I was thrilled! Open it up and opened the knife and low and behold! I just paid 1250 bucks for a knife with blade play! My heart sank to say the least. I contacted Matt and explained about the knife and the condition I found it in. I was in no shape to talk about this then and there. I needed to cool down.

The next day(today), I contacted Matt to discuss the issues. He offered to pay shipping to CRK and to forgive the money he feels is owed to him for the refund. I feel this is a slap in the face. I asked for a refund of some money since the knife delivered is not an "excellent condition" knife. He offered one thing and sold another. Matt did say that he didn’t inspect the knife when he received it, just listed it for sale. I understand mistakes can happen; we are all human. But the issue is that this is not a 1200-dollar knife as advertised. I do not feel a refund of some money to make this right is asking too much.


Matt's response was basically NO. Sadly, I will take this as a learning experience and move on. I have no control over other people’s morals.


I am not hear to bash Matt at all. Matt and I have had several transactions together, all positive. And I still feel Matt is a good guy, but this one got away from him and he was not willing to make this right in my eyes. And just for the record we didn’t even discuss how much refund I felt I am entitled too.

I wish you all the luck Matt, Just not a happy camper with this transaction.

Russ
Click to expand...
 
Forester_01 said:
Yes, the main reason behind that was to include details and information on the knife which Russ and I discussed privately. I felt it was necessary to incorporate that information once this feedback thread began.
Click to expand...
Regardless of the reasoning, it's still a bad look for you.
Sharp & Fiery said:
That means that the transaction is still not finished and the negative feedback was premature.
Click to expand...
The feedback was not premature, "money changed hands"... the transaction was complete and the buyer was well within his rights to leave feedback.
Worldwatcher said:
Also add that the buyer started the thread and then disappeared
Click to expand...
He's been in contact with me privately.
 
Boru13 said:
Regardless of the reasoning, it's still a bad look for you.

The feedback was not premature, "money changed hands"... the transaction was complete and the buyer was well within his rights to leave feedback.

He's been in contact with me privately.
Click to expand...

I apologize...this part confuses me...

  1. If you must back out of a deal, it is YOUR responsibility to communicate with the other person WHY you are unable to complete the transaction. Make sure this happens BEFORE any money or items have been exchanged. Problems should be attempted to be resolved between the persons involved, before Feedback threads are started. (Bold is mine)
 
Good Morning all,

Worldwatcher Worldwatcher
Sharp & Fiery Sharp & Fiery

Lets start with addressing some concerns:


Also, not sure why you had to wait to “gather funds,” as you were able to send two payments. Hmmm...

I didn't have the total funds set aside for a knife that was double what I was expecting to pay. Matt and I had discussed the S30V he currently has for sale for at least a month. When he decided he wanted to make profit I stepped aside. So i didnt have all the cash available at the moment but if you look at the dates on these threads you will see that I sold 7 knives to come up with the remainder of the money needed to purchase the higher end knife. Please double check me here. I don't have money sitting around and if this was wrong, then I am wrong.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/large-inkosi-and-umnumzaan.1746424/

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/wts-becker-esse-spyderco-kabar.1746427/#post-19975362



Next:
Also add that the buyer started the thread and then disappeared, while the seller has been proactive in trying to come to a positive resolution.

I mentioned in my opening post that I was not here to bash anyone and that I was taking this as a learning experience. I had my say on the matter. And after being told: Matt's response was basically NO. Sadly, I will take this as a learning experience and move on.
I do not think it would be right to sit on a public forum and talk shit about someone who you have had many great conversations with and thought of as a friend. I spoke the truth about the matter as I saw it, Matt did the same. We both "liked" each other response. I feel we have both been civil discussing this. It is not my intention to sit and stew on this, thus my absence from the post. I noticed right away he changed the post to add more information. He says we discussed it, we did right after i mentioned the issue. I have the facebook messages to prove it. Actually I have all of them, just as he does. Who want to see the whole chain? we could certainly put together a timeline then. Again, I am not here to bother or bash anyone, just stating my side.

Next:
Problems should be attempted to be resolved between the persons involved, before Feedback threads are started. (Bold is mine)

Matt's words: I'm willing to work with you Russ, but I will not consider a refund as an option.

At that point I took no for NO! and then moved on. said my peace and left it at that.
Now it has been noted that Matt felt I was asking for a complete refund. And this would explain his answer of NO.
He reached out to me and explained. offered "some compensation". I replied and asked for 250.00 refund. To include half of the refund fee of the over payment. He replied with a counter offer. He then sent me money of which i did not agree too. I have refunded the money to him.
In my eyes I was told NO, and was done, seller reached out again, I gave a second chance to make it right. I wasn't happy, asked him to move on as well. Now he has contacted me for the knife back and wants to do a full refund.

I have mentioned before several times, I want the knife, I just feel slighted by the seller whether it was an honest mistake or if he did know about it before hand. He was sure quick to hold it for a for sure sale. Honestly, I don't think this was the case, or I don't want to believe that Matt would do business that way. Guys I have no hard feelings for Matt, I'm just not able to do business like this. Not sure how many times I need to say this but I just want to move on. I will have the knife looked at and yes I do believe CRK will take care of the blade play.

So how many of you would like the full messages chain from Matt and myself? I am happy to post, I have nothing to hide here and want to be totally transparent.

Matt,
I am not interested in a full refund. At this point I have given you and the forum what would make me feel better about the transaction.I am sure I will take a hit on the negative feedback as well. I will just have to live with it, i still stand behind my comments. I am sorry for the feedback, but nothing said was malicious in any way. And I doubt this will ever be settled, but if it would become that way I would certainly update my feedback and this post. Feedback is to help protect us from tough transactions, I was merely providing mine. Good Luck my Friend.

Russ
 
I believe this has been a great learning experience for both the buyer and myself, in particular. Throughout the transaction, I tried my best to propose options that would make the buyer whole while still sticking with what I believed fair given the circumstances.

I appreciate that this thread has remained civil for the most part. It attests to the caliber of the members whom I've had the pleasure of dealing with over the course of a few years.

I'm hoping that we are able to move on from this and treat it as a learning experience. I know that I, for one, will now thoroughly check all the knives I advertise for any cosmetic or physical issues (bladeplay) and will include this in the description of any advertisements I make, not just private discussions between potential buyers. Russ, please know that my offer for a full refund & shipping fees still stand, and the motives behind offering compensation and shipping fees were not intended to be a slap in the face; they were purely empathetic as I know that this meant a lot to both of us.

Good luck to you as well, Russ. As far as I am concerned, this has been resolved.
 
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Sharp & Fiery said:
I apologize...this part confuses me...

  1. If you must back out of a deal, it is YOUR responsibility to communicate with the other person WHY you are unable to complete the transaction. Make sure this happens BEFORE any money or items have been exchanged. Problems should be attempted to be resolved between the persons involved, before Feedback threads are started. (Bold is mine)
Click to expand...
Nothing to apologize for, it's all good.

What you quoted concerns buyers backing out of a commitment to complete the transaction, the buyer in question didn't do this. He's not satisfied with the condition of the knife, there's been many GBU threads started for this very reason. In my opinion the buyer did no wrong in starting this thread.

The majority of GBU threads concerning transactions are started because of the seller not providing a "detailed" description of the item which in turn results in an unhappy buyer. Again my opinion, but if you're selling a high dollar item it's on the seller to go over that item with a magnifying glass if necessary in order to assure that there are no surprises for the buyer... sellers need to provide a detailed and accurate description for any item regardless of dollar value but it's especially important when it's a high dollar item.
 
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