"Tourist" vs "Traditional" Kukris

[stabnshoot]

I recently found these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jty3cTV-DuE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mae-F9fvR1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CYjVQO8RCc

Put out by Simon Hengle who owns Tora Blades, a UK based importer of Nepalese made Khukris.

As talked about in these videos, apparently there is a pretty big difference between export/tourist khukris and the traditional khukris used by Nepalese, but not necessarily by Ghurkas.

I'm not sure whether or not this information is to be used when considering a purchase, for a few reasons:

1. Simon is trying to sell his own Khukris over the other importers such as HI, KHHI, etc
2. Traditional Khukris are just that - traditional. It would make sense to me that the "tourist" versions appear to be thicker, polished, and some have more decoration touches that your average Himalayan villager would need/be able to afford. We are talking about people who live in one of the poorest nations of the world, so the fact that the traditional versions are raw, unpolished, not as highly finished makes perfect sense. Traditional versions aren't necessarily better.

The only information that I think is beneficial is the traditional sheath design, and the larger karda and chakmaks that are provided with the traditional khukri styles.

This does raise the question though, of what combination of weight and length are the best for the various outdoors (or even indoors) tasks that you might use a khukri for.

Edit: I should also note that Simon has a pretty nasty habit of insulting potential customers in the comments of his videos if they dare to question his comparison. Very unprofessional.

 

[Karda]

Yes, Mr. Hengle has been banned from this forum for his less than professional attitude and manners.
Anything he says should be researched and taken with a grain of salt. He is primarily using disparaging remarks of competitors and others such tactics to sell his product. I've also seen him sell obvious india made khukuri as WWII specimens when he obviously can't truly know. Most khukuri don't have the benefit of dates of manufacture or even provenance, so his "expertise" is questionable and subjective.

While it is true that your "Average Nepali" villager or farmer will not have a polished highly decorative blade there are many other castes in the country that will.
To say that all polished and decorative khukuri are "tourist" models is rubbish. Even in Nepal there are various sizes and weights for khukuri used for different tasks.
To say that heavier models, decorative models or polished models are all tourist khukuri is also rubbish.

Mr. Hengle is in the business primarily to try to reproduce vintage models from the war era, A specific and short period of time where fighting khukuri were primarily produced. Even his reproduction khukuri sometimes fall short of their goal in the finish, taper and aesthetic areas. He is primarily focused on getting the general outline or shape and weight to those produced during the previously mentioned short period of time.

The "best weight"..."best length" is a very personal and subjective matter.
Some people prefer light khukuri and some people prefer heavier khukuri.
A khukuri primarily used for hiking and camp chores will tend to be smaller and lighter than one which is primarily used as a dedicated wood chopper where the extra length and weight will be advantageous.

Generally speaking, a khukuri should be matched to the task at hand or primary usage and also should be matched to a persons physical stature and ability.

 

[JayGoliath]

Your title is misleading. It's asking for a comparison between a tourist and a traditional khukuris and not Simon Hengle.

One is a wall hanger and another puts food and heads on the table, depending on the turf you are going to.

 

[jdk1]

Agreed Jay, "tourist" to me implies wall hanger junk. Then there is the "westernized" khukuri and the “historical” khukuri. Simon focuses on very specific types or models of historic khukuri. I personally don't think it's so much for sales, as his limited production usually goes quickly, but he has strong opinions on what constitutes a “proper” khukuri and freely shares them The khukuri world is just like every other hobby/passion/interest. Everyone has THIER opinion of what is best, albeit with different levels of enthusiasm. Simon has a lot of knowledge concerning khukuri, especially military models, but there are other highly knowledgeable folks as well and they don’t always see eye to eye.

If you are interested in the most accurate replicas of certain historic khukuri, then I think Tora is the obvious choice. I prefer the lighter khukuri and want replicas of certain military models, and I have a couple of Toras for those reasons. Others have no interest in particular models or history and just want a user. Tora and HI can both supply solid users, it’s just a matter of model. I would do the research, evaluate your intended use, and pick one up. If you are really interested in khuks, it won’t be your last and, like me, your tastes may change over time. That’s fine. I only have experience with HI and Tora, for tradionally made khukuri anyway. Some are very happy with their various khukuri house blades, but certain things will keep me from buying from them. YMMV. Good luck.

 

[Kai Winters]

I think one of the best and most important aspects about knife makers and designers is the final product/object is as much a bit of their unique and individual personality as it is the knife itself.

The knife is a bit of a representation of who and what the maker/designer is.
I think also that may be why collectors have so many...they are all a bit different and speak to the collector/admirer/etc. a bit differently.

Because of this all bladed weapons/tools are often made for a specific reason/purpose...perhaps they also give an individuality to a group to separate them from others or identify them in a specific way. As a sample of this many Katanas were produced, during WWII, for Japanese officers. They were made out of lesser steels than "true" katanas and were made more to identify the officers as part of a "superior" class/the Samurai class and to be obeyed regardless of order. Perhaps the WWII khukuri were made in a similar fashion...to not only identify the soldiers/warriors for what they were but to also give them a "piece of home and heritage" when they were fighting and away from home.

Additionally makers then as today are individuals with their own "vision" and abilities plus the materials they had at hand to use making for every khukuri potentially different from others. Also if the makers are going from taking their time on basically "one offs" to cranking them out as fast as possible quality...meaning final fit and finish...will be down graded though the weapon/tools useability will be unaffected.

I'm generally leery about a maker or seller proclaiming to sell/make an exact copy of something especially from earlier periods when there are so many differences because of the makers involved.
I'm also leery of anyone that denigrates others in order to rise above...politicians dirty tricks and campaigns come to mind...others. Speak of how you do something and/or are making it better if you want my attention.

Do some Google searches to learn about something in order to make the best and wisest purchase.

 

[Dirtbiker]

I've owned kukris from many manufacturers and time periods. My Himalayan Imports collection ran somewhere north of 30 plus blades, some thick and heavy and some thin and light.

What HI has always brought to the table is a well made, quality kukri. The best part is if you have a problem with it Yangdu will replace or refund your purchase.

I've owned two Tora kukris and both had issues that HI would have easily fixed for me. Tora makes the process incredibly difficult to get your kukri replaced. In fact HI wouldn't have even sold these as first quality anyway they would have been discounted as blems. Bottom line is you might get a really great kukri from Tora, you might not, but if you don't get a good one good luck getting it fixed.

 

[jdk1]

What Dirtbiker says is important. I've had one Tora replaced, but it took a long time and I wasn't totally satified with the replacement. It is an outstanding khukuri in many ways, but has issues I believe QC should have caught. I have also seen issues with HI's, but Yangdu's customer service is legendary, as is her shipping speed! HI WILL take care of you. It's not just a sales policy, it's Yangdu's personal life philosophy. In my experience with hand made khuks, that is very important as mistakes happen. The khukuri houses will want you to order another khuk and they throw the replacement in with it. Some folks have been made happy by this, but it doesn't sound ideal to me.

Kia Winters, Simon collects samples he believes represent the best of certain models and sends them to his representative in Nepal for reproduction. He genuinely trys, IMHO, to produce khukuri as close as possible to the originals. He also has vast experience with historic khukuri, and using khukuri in martial arts (which is somegthing I know nothing about), so he fills a certain niche as best he can. Ultimately, your advice on research is the wisest course for anyone buying custom or handmade items IMO.

Stabnshoot, to address your question of what makes the ideal length and weight. For me, I want something which handles light brush and reasonable chopping. I've found 17-18" OAL and 21-23 oz. ideal, but it's a very individual thing. Those numbers fit several historic WWI/II khukri types, as well as the CS Gurkha and ESEE Junglas. So, I figure I can't be too far off the mark. Good luck.

 

[Silverjohn]

I’d like to post my views on this topic as it generally only gets discussed on the HI forum and I’ve never felt it appropriate to comment there.

The OP lists a couple of reasons why they’re not sure whether to use the information in Simon’s videos when considering a purchase:

"1) Simon is trying to sell his own Khukris over the other importers such as HI, KHHI, etc."

He certainly is, as is everyone else selling kukri. That doesn’t take away from the truths he raises.

"2) Traditional Khukris are just that - traditional. It would make sense to me that the "tourist" versions appear to be thicker, polished, and some have more decoration touches that your average Himalayan villager would need/be able to afford. We are talking about people who live in one of the poorest nations of the world, so the fact that the traditional versions are raw, unpolished, not as highly finished makes perfect sense. Traditional versions aren't necessarily better."

This second concern kind of misses the point. I believe that Simon interprets “Traditional” as meaning the styles, shapes (of both blades and handles), weights and handling that can be seen in the traditional kukri made from the 1700’s to roughly the middle of the 20thc. There are plenty of examples of “Traditional” kukri that have lots of “decoration touches” and are of higher quality craftsmanship and finish than any kami alive today can produce. I truly believe the real art of kukri making is already dead, but I would love to be proven wrong if anyone had something special they’d like to share?

Tora blades have (IMHO) a very admirable mission objective: to replicate some of these traditional blades as closely as possible. Whether or not they achieve that goal is certainly up for debate, the Tora kukri of yesteryear definitely had a much better finish than those of recent years (of which I have owned three). However the fact remains that Tora’s blades are pretty damn close to the traditional originals in terms of weight, blade shape and handling (even if the handles and bolsters on recent models leave something to be desired).

When comparing modern kukri (and not all modern kukri would be classed as “tourist” kukri) to the traditional kukri of the past 250+ years it is strikingly apparent they were made at much lower weights (very rarely exceeding 1kg, the majority being 500-750g) using slimmer blades with good distal taper to improve balance and handling and give a larger blade to weight ratio.

When picking a kukri the key factor for me personally is handling. Length and weight simply do not tell the whole story. For example these two blades are very similar in terms of size, shape and weight. However they are polar opposites in terms of handling. The top kukri being one of the best handling I own, the bottom being one of the worst:

Again with these MKII’s, very similar size, shape and weight but the M43 (bottom) is light-years ahead of the 1915 Boota Singh and Sons (top) in terms of handling, even if the M43 can’t hold a candle to the build quality of the Boota.

To compare a Khukri House BSI with an offering from Tora, the below pics illustrate this difference in blade size to weight ratio.

A selection of kukri ordered by blade length, Tora at the top, Khukri House at the bottom.

and then in order of weight:

Get the gist of it? If not I can tell you that the Kukri House BSI handles like garbage compared to the Tora. It splits wood like a champ, but it feels like a hammer vs a sabre when compared to the old originals (buy which I mean really old originals, not necessarily WWII kukri).

If we’re discussing Tora’s quality control, customer service and Simon’s own inimitable interpersonal style, I wouldn’t have much positive to say. But the reality is, Tora kukri are closer to traditional kukri than any other manufacturer because Simon finds the original historical examples of the blades that he likes and has them replicated as closely as his modern kami are capable of making them.

If I wanted a user kukri I’d opt for an original MKII or MKIII, failing that I’d roll the dice with a Tora or pay that little bit extra to get an HI blade made to my personal tastes.

 

[EChoil]

I’d like to post my views on this topic as it generally only gets discussed on the HI forum and I’ve never felt it appropriate to comment there.

The OP lists a couple of reasons why they’re not sure whether to use the information in Simon’s videos when considering a purchase:

"1) Simon is trying to sell his own Khukris over the other importers such as HI, KHHI, etc."

He certainly is, as is everyone else selling kukri. That doesn’t take away from the truths he raises.

"2) Traditional Khukris are just that - traditional. It would make sense to me that the "tourist" versions appear to be thicker, polished, and some have more decoration touches that your average Himalayan villager would need/be able to afford. We are talking about people who live in one of the poorest nations of the world, so the fact that the traditional versions are raw, unpolished, not as highly finished makes perfect sense. Traditional versions aren't necessarily better."

This second concern kind of misses the point. I believe that Simon interprets “Traditional” as meaning the styles, shapes (of both blades and handles), weights and handling that can be seen in the traditional kukri made from the 1700’s to roughly the middle of the 20thc. There are plenty of examples of “Traditional” kukri that have lots of “decoration touches” and are of higher quality craftsmanship and finish than any kami alive today can produce. I truly believe the real art of kukri making is already dead, but I would love to be proven wrong if anyone had something special they’d like to share?

Tora blades have (IMHO) a very admirable mission objective: to replicate some of these traditional blades as closely as possible. Whether or not they achieve that goal is certainly up for debate, the Tora kukri of yesteryear definitely had a much better finish than those of recent years (of which I have owned three). However the fact remains that Tora’s blades are pretty damn close to the traditional originals in terms of weight, blade shape and handling (even if the handles and bolsters on recent models leave something to be desired).

When comparing modern kukri (and not all modern kukri would be classed as “tourist” kukri) to the traditional kukri of the past 250+ years it is strikingly apparent they were made at much lower weights (very rarely exceeding 1kg, the majority being 500-750g) using slimmer blades with good distal taper to improve balance and handling and give a larger blade to weight ratio.

When picking a kukri the key factor for me personally is handling. Length and weight simply do not tell the whole story. For example these two blades are very similar in terms of size, shape and weight. However they are polar opposites in terms of handling. The top kukri being one of the best handling I own, the bottom being one of the worst:

Again with these MKII’s, very similar size, shape and weight but the M43 (bottom) is light-years ahead of the 1915 Boota Singh and Sons (top) in terms of handling, even if the M43 can’t hold a candle to the build quality of the Boota.

To compare a Khukri House BSI with an offering from Tora, the below pics illustrate this difference in blade size to weight ratio.

A selection of kukri ordered by blade length, Tora at the top, Khukri House at the bottom.

and then in order of weight:

Get the gist of it? If not I can tell you that the Kukri House BSI handles like garbage compared to the Tora. It splits wood like a champ, but it feels like a hammer vs a sabre when compared to the old originals (buy which I mean really old originals, not necessarily WWII kukri).

If we’re discussing Tora’s quality control, customer service and Simon’s own inimitable interpersonal style, I wouldn’t have much positive to say. But the reality is, Tora kukri are closer to traditional kukri than any other manufacturer because Simon finds the original historical examples of the blades that he likes and has them replicated as closely as his modern kami are capable of making them.

If I wanted a user kukri I’d opt for an original MKII or MKIII, failing that I’d roll the dice with a Tora or pay that little bit extra to get an HI blade made to my personal tastes.

Thank you for posting that.

In the pictures of 7, I own the second one down in the top pic; fourth one down in the following pic. Anything you can tell me about it; that "model," it's origins or whatever? The only identifying stamp on my blade is " I • C • E ". I have posted on other threads trying to find out a little more about it. I only know it came from Nepal or that area.

I have had it for decades. It is a great tool and wonderful knife...pretty much a conversation piece. It appears to be hand-hammered when closely examining the steel but the handle looks a bit 'commercial' to me.

 

[Silverjohn]

Hi there EChoil,

Any chance of a pic of your kukri? The reason I ask is because that particular kukri is an original of a much copied tourist style of kukri often referred to as a "Lion's Head kukri". My kukri was a WWII bring back from an Officer who served in Burma, but the design of ringed handle, decorative pins, and dui chirra (twin fullered) blade is often replicated along with a lion's head pommel buy producers of tourist kukri who co-oped once prestigious features.

If your kukri does not have the lions head pommel then it may well be one of the originals, or possibly (more likely statistically speaking) one of the many post war Indian made kukri that were targeted towards WWII service men looking for a cool souvenir to take home. If it is made from good hardened steel then it's probably not a tourist piece. I'm not familiar with the stamp you mention, but that doesn't mean too much!

 

[stabnshoot]

that I’d roll the dice with a Tora or pay that little bit extra to get an HI blade made to my personal tastes.

HI does custom blades? If this is true I'd like to have them make something for me rather than Khukri House.

 

[Dirtbiker]

I believe the art of kukri making is "almost" dead. You can still buy newly made nepalese kukris that are comparable to the old world kukris.

Example this HI made foxy folly 22" 24oz

 

[Silverjohn]

Gorgeous modern kukri you have there! I've actually said before on another thread that I think the Bura made Foxy Folly is the best modern kukri I've ever seen.

That said, I have several kukri in my very modest collection of antiques that exceed that kuk (IMHO). If I was gong to be pedantic I'd say that the straight handle, fat bolster and mini / slightly too far from bolster kaudi need adjustment for this to be on a par with the kukri of old:

But you may well look at those pics and think that I must have been sniffing glue before posting! That Foxy Folly is unquestionably awesome, but it is most definitely the exception to the rule.

 

[Dirtbiker]

Nice pieces SJ. I used to have an 18" tin chirra that weighed 17oz. It was similar to the 2nd one down in your picture. It was circa 1920s.

 

[EChoil]

Hi there EChoil,

Any chance of a pic of your kukri? The reason I ask is because that particular kukri is an original of a much copied tourist style of kukri often referred to as a "Lion's Head kukri". My kukri was a WWII bring back from an Officer who served in Burma, but the design of ringed handle, decorative pins, and dui chirra (twin fullered) blade is often replicated along with a lion's head pommel buy producers of tourist kukri who co-oped once prestigious features.

If your kukri does not have the lions head pommel then it may well be one of the originals, or possibly (more likely statistically speaking) one of the many post war Indian made kukri that were targeted towards WWII service men looking for a cool souvenir to take home. If it is made from good hardened steel then it's probably not a tourist piece. I'm not familiar with the stamp you mention, but that doesn't mean too much!

Sorry but no cam access. I looked closer...blades appear to be identical, kauda the same. The handles are identical in everything (if your front bolster is brass; the lighting looks like it could be nickel), There is no lion on my pommel--smooth brass with the nail in it. BTW, mine is single-fullered (angkhola). It looks like the one in your pic is too.

It was brought from the Nepal region by my parents in the late 60's, given to me as a child. I only remember they said it was hand made and they got it from the guy who made it. The steel is hell-for-stout and seems superb after all these years--it is coarsely "rippled" when held to strong light, as though it may be hand forged rather than stamped/mass produced. I keep it maintained, polished and sharp. Always wondered about that handle though.

I hope someday to find out about the " I • C • E " blade stamp. Whether it is a company, a group, a maker's mark or what....

Thanks for any info you have.

 

[Silverjohn]

Thanks Dirtbiker.

The tin chirra sounds great, they're not very common amongst antiques. The 2nd one down is roughly 18" and 20oz, the handle is ivory, but I couldn't tell you if that's adding or saving weight. If you don't mind me asking, what happened to the tin chirra? Do you have any pics stashed away?

My old dui chirra is clearly styled like the famous Fisher kukri: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/FzDrekacQHusof2P4WULgw

However, more knowledgeable collectors than myself have suggested that it is more 1920's than 1850's.

 

[EChoil]

Gorgeous modern kukri you have there! I've actually said before on another thread that I think the Bura made Foxy Folly is the best modern kukri I've ever seen. If you fancy selling it please PM me!

That said, I have several kukri in my very modest collection of antiques that exceed that kuk (IMHO). If I was gong to be pedantic I'd say that the straight handle, fat bolster and mini / slightly too far from bolster kaudi need adjustment for this to be on a par with the kukri of old:

This one's a beaut.

 

[Dirtbiker]

I sold most of my vintage kukris. Here's a photo with a couple of my M43s

 

[Silverjohn]

Hi Echoil,

From what you say it sounds like your piece was made by a kami following the patterns/style of my earlier kukri and the many others like it.

With kukri there are many styles, shapes and motifs that are used over a broad time range and wide geographical area. The ringed handle style like the one in my pic seem to have been associated with Dehradun and also Garwhal kami during the first half of the 20th C (they're quite far apart and also in modern India, though borders have shifted a great deal over the centuries). Kukri styles seem to spread and merge from area to area, this is one of the things that makes collecting kukri so interesting, it is extraordinarily hard to place and date them!

If the steel is good then you know you have a user not tourist piece. Though I personally wouldn't use that one, I'd keep it for the memories.

 

[Silverjohn]

I sold most of my vintage kukris. Here's a photo with a couple of my M43s

Oooooooh.... Nice!