Toxic Axe Personality Disorder

[phantomknives]

yes yes a thousand times yes, i feel stupid looking back on my first posts

 

[Curt Hal]

This is the only forum I pay any attention to. In the time I've belonged, I've learned a TON. I've seen a couple of testy exchanges, but would have to say it's pretty tame. I strive for all of the things 42 Blades has listed, but know I won't get there often due to the availability of imperfect materials and my own imperfect skills. The only thing that consistently irritates me is how easily and cheaply some of you guys get quality axe heads to work on! As Neil Young says, "There ain't nothing like a friend who can tell you you're just pissin' in the wind." Sometimes people just need to be told.

 

[littleknife]

This proliferation of “toxic axe-induced on-line behavior" has happened in cycles quite a few times in the history of this forum.
“The Regulars” regularly change, and there are always new “New Members”.
The Internet Forums cultivate “Personas”, some of which are “Toxic Personalities”. Those have a predictable tendency to clash with the other forum members, and after that you have a “Situation”.
Some people are just too “Fast and Furious” regarding getting offended or offending others.
Fortunately, so far the cleanup of these “Toxic Spills” has been done efficiently, so there were no “Mass-Extinction Events”.
I do miss a few “Extinct” Old Timer Regulars (Ernest DuBois), and Old Axeman is not much active here anymore either.
Most of the time though things are calm, friendly and educational, frequently enough they are even entertaining.
Overall, this is one of the better Forums even on BladeForums.
Let’s hope it remains so…

 

[littleknife]

Am I guilty of TAPD? I would say yes? I believe everybody is at one point? The thing is: Discussion is Great, but You still have To Be Open minded about it. But then again: When somebody is wrong,there wrong, and You can say it as wel. I just tend to abandon someone who isnt willing to listen. And I must say: The ignore function is helping a lot! You cant help everybody. Soms People are just to far gone. But the ignore function keeps it sane so Your own TAPD doesnt act up.

‘Willing to listen’ is a two-way door, if one wants not only to be listened to, but also to listen.
And if we are to be trying to be open minded, maybe we should consider the possibility that our own opinion about the other being wrong might be wrong?
Alternatively, we can just ignore everyone who disagrees with us.
‘How far’ is ‘too far’ regarding opinions is deeply personal, but the ’too far’ we all have to abide here is the ’too far’ regarding civility.
Things are rarely black-and-white, there are many alternative perspectives. We don’t have to agree with all of them, it is impossible to accept all of them, and yes, sometimes we just have to ignore some of them, in order to keep our own sanity, and that of the forum as well.
The most interesting thing is, when we - rarely - discover and embrace perspective we previously thought impossible to exist or to consider.
You are telling me, there is actually an ‘Ignore’ function here?!? Thats an exciting perspective I did not consider yet…

 

[Hickory n steel]

I have seen a few really heated discussions here.
There's currently one regarding the Hudson bay pattern, and a really really heated one regarding I believe balance and advantages of poll axes, and another with someone being insistent on an unclear statement that full tang hatchets are somehow bill hooks. Other than this though it's been pretty tame here, and knowledge seems to flow pretty freely.

I will admit that I always have more love for a vintage tool with patina. Now while I do know that they're often better than a new tool and would always go vintage when I can, I'm not one to turn my nose up at anyone who chose a new axe or hatchet because quality tools can still be made at an affordable price.
Now my feelings towards these Swedish boutique axes are a different story that I won't get into.

I don't really know what the point of this thread is, but I do know that this forum is much better than another unnamed forum of a different subject matter that I belong to, a place where you have to share the opinions of everyone else or be an outcast.

 

[Agent_H]

I have seen a few really heated discussions here.
There's currently one regarding the Hudson bay pattern, and a really really heated one regarding I believe balance and advantages of poll axes, and another with someone being insistent on an unclear statement that full tang hatchets are somehow bill hooks. Other than this though it's been pretty tame here, and knowledge seems to flow pretty freely.

I will admit that I always have more love for a vintage tool with patina. Now while I do know that they're often better than a new tool and would always go vintage when I can, I'm not one to turn my nose up at anyone who chose a new axe or hatchet because quality tools can still be made at an affordable price.
Now my feelings towards these Swedish boutique axes are a different story that I won't get into.

I don't really know what the point of this thread is, but I do know that this forum is much better than another unnamed forum of a different subject matter that I belong to, a place where you have to share the opinions of everyone else or be an outcast.

Yep, text is tricky but:

All voice has tone.

All writing has voice.

Therefore all writing has tone.

"You don't pull the trigger every time you have a target."

 

[Hickory n steel]

Yep, text is tricky but:

All voice has tone.

All writing has voice.

Therefore all writing has tone.

"You don't pull the trigger every time you have a target."

I try to have the attitude that I will be wrong somethimes and have stood corrected on more than one occasion.
On another forum just yesterday I got a pm from a member apologizing for having wrongly corrected me on something. I didn't even remember the thread or anything, but it shows that people actually do realize they're wrong and apologize sometimes.
People need to try and remember that arguments aren't always worth it.

 

[Square_peg]

I've got a number of folks I'd actually consider as good friends despite the fact that we've routinely butted heads rather fiercely over a number of different subjects, but because it was always about the issues and with truth-seeking in mind we're able to be friendly about it and not get personal.

I probably fall into this category. We've butted heads many times but I consider you my friend and I think we have mutual respect.

There have been several on here who have rubbed me wrong at first but we became friends, swapped ideas and even axes. Overall it's a terrific community. Everyone has something to add - something I don't know yet and will appreciate learning.

:grouphug:

 

[halfaxe]

I think overall the tone on the axe forum is civil. It's interesting to me to see so many passionate about axes, a tool that seemed close to obsolescence before the internet allowed all the axe nerds to get together and share their knowledge and experience. We all have different experiences and knowledge levels, but no longer must we labor alone learning about the history of humanities most important tool. Or was that the knife. Sometimes ones passion stirs a possessiveness that comes across as condescending. It's like being in a school classroom with phd's through first grade. An axe is a very personal tool. I thought the Hudson Bay discussion got a little heated but it could have been worse if we all were just more macho. Amazing since there is no more macho tool than an axe. Just my rambling thoughts on this topic.

 

[Steve Tall]

I think that we can fall into a "debate trap", with fixed opinions that need to be defended from opposing views, sometimes escalating to "nasty". I wonder why we (myself included) can feel threatened by a different opinion, for relatively inconsequential stuff? Maybe it's the fear of being seen as "wrong"?

Ideally we would have dialogues where we are open to changing our opinion (and even learning something), depending on what comes up. There are a lot of grey areas, and different circumstances beyond our own experiences.

 

[Kevin Houtzager]

Maybe it's the fear of being seen as "wrong"?

In my case I can honestly say that being wrong wasn't part of the equation, and it never has in the past, on this forum, or in life. But I do know that writing about something and presenting it as fact can be a nasty thing, with nasty concequences. And thats what I am willing to avoid at all cost. Not for me, because I know whats wrong or right. And If I don't know I'll be the first to admit that I don't know. But I do it for the fact that there are a lot more people that read this forum then you and me alone. And I see it as my responsiblity to give information that is correct, on the subjects that I know are correct.

I really dont know if thats true for a lot of people, but is for me.

 

[300Six]

One of the very real problems with Internet forums is in weighting of opinions. A simple piece of advice from someone such as Old Axeman will be argued or dismissed by (what I often suspect is) some pre-teen who lives in an Internet fantasy world. We have no way of knowing because none of this is conducted face to face. It's nice that wheat can be separated from chaff over the long run but it's not so easy to keep tempers from flaring in the meantime. I am by and large impressed with the wealth and caliber of responses on here and am happy that there is an even-tempered core of knowledgeable and experienced contributors.

 

[Storm Crow]

•A compulsion to doggedly criticize anything that does not match their mental schema of a "perfect axe" or "proper technique" well beyond the point that could be considered as constructive.

•The belief that only vintage axes should be used (often ignoring context) and that anything else is a waste of effort and money.

Ok, this pretty much covers the entirety of the problem I see in this sub-forum. There has been a fairly high rate of turnover of folks who used to be regular contributors because whenever they post anything outside of re-handling the latest flea market find, they get descended upon by the same ol' crowd with the same ol' narrow way of looking at things and the same ol' (usually snarky and derisive) comments.

This is the "Axe, Hatchet, and Tomahawk" sub-forum. That covers a tremendous amount of territory in history, usage, and design. My own little segment of the ax world these days (because I have forged light camp axes with hickory handles in the past, and grew up using an ax for brush clearing and processing fuel for the wood stove that kept me warm in the winter time) is tactical tomahawks, particularly full tang 'hawks, intended for actual carry by military, LEO, and first responders. Over and over again when that topic has come up, I get to read (usually from the same small group) that full tang tomahawks abjectly suck compared to antique wooden-handled forestry axes and are nothing but goofy toys for wannabee Rambeaux. Or that's the basic gist.

For crying out loud, there was a recent thread where a guy wanted to get a full-tang hatchet to make his own handle scales for. He got a small handful of useful suggestions, then it devolved into a four-page poo-flinging episode where it was argued ad nauseum that full-tang hatchets were actually billhooks.

And the "boutique" ax thing. A quick lookup of the definition yields "a business that serves a sophisticated or specialized clientele". Why is that a bad thing? I see much lamentation over the closing down of ax factories back before I was even born, but the factories that are actively making axes at modern prices for quality goods tend to get sneered at.

There are two fairly young ax-makers I follow on Instagram who are making axes and similar tools full-time. They do great work. One of them makes the only beautiful froes I've ever seen, and the other makes a saddle ax that makes me weak in the knees. I don't claim to read every thread in this sub-forum, but I've never seen either one mentioned in passing. I have seen at least one of them's work in the Axes For Sale section, to be fair.

I know several people who are big in the tactical tomahawk business who used to post here but now rarely/never post. I also note a number of tactical tomahawk owners/users who no longer hang out here. That is supposedly part of the umbrella of this forum, but the number of folks willing to put up with the jackassery that pops up whenever the subject is brought up dwindles.

Look, I don't care about what battered, blocky, abused ax head someone got at this weekend's garage sale and how they are going to clean it up and put a new handle on it. But I know that someone does, and the fact that they want to post/read/discuss about that does me not one whit of harm. Let them do so, more power to 'em. But extend the same blasted courtesy to the folks that have other ax/tomahawk/hatchet-related interests.

Dudes, there are segments of the ax market that do not correspond to what you like and are interested in. That is ok. Stay out of those threads. Let people discuss the ax design that matches their wants and needs. Don't be an asshole.

 

[Ugaldie]

Storm Crow all of us have different opinions about different tools, being able to talk about them in a repectful way makes a forum a constructive place were you can contrast different views and learn about different aspects. If we stablish taboos the quality of the forum decreases and the people who enters here looking for information can easily have incorrect of completely partial information, this degenerates the community as a whole.

For crying out loud, there was a recent thread where a guy wanted to get a full-tang hatchet to make his own handle scales for. He got a small handful of useful suggestions, then it devolved into a four-page poo-flinging episode where it was argued ad nauseum that full-tang hatchets were actually billhooks.

If somebody opens a thread asking for information about axes and "full-tang hatchets" I will respond him/her if I have the time and will. My opinion can be badly taken from some people (specially you the makers) but if we talk in a respectful way there is no problem. If anybody opens a thread about "full-tang hatchets" (handbills for me) and I want to advice him about other better tool I'll do it, if he says he is focused in one tool and he only wants it I will respect his opinion and leave him.

If you think somebody is wrong express your opinion in the thread and talk about it respectfully, in my opinion in this type of opinion contrasts almost 100% of the times all the parts (readers included) learn something. That makes a forum a good and healthy forum. If someone is afraid enough to show his opinion publically because he can be wrong he has a problem related to his ego and/or maturity. All of us have wrong opinions you and me included, discussing in a respectful way with other people makes you to see clearer your personality and thinking way.

Let's see an easy example about contrasting opinions, half a year ago a very respected young axemaker said he could produce an axe which can excell in both, cutting and splitting. That can confuse to the newbies, they can take it as a true and write about it in internet saying his source is one of the best, this way snowballs do start. I contacted the axemaker publically in his video, he didn't like it, some of his and my messages have disappeared, but at last he saw I wouldn't stop and people had already read the messages so he left some comments there. I would be easier for me to not to get involved but this is the way to create a healthier community.

 

[Agent_H]

cat on keyboard...

 

[Hacked]

I like axes

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.
2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

~Daniel Dennett, "Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking"

 

[Mack]

As a relative newbie to this subforum I'd like to add my 2 cents.
There is a fine line between teaching and belittling on forums. If someone comes here looking to learn we should try to help him/her not push him/her away by simply barking out "facts" as we know them. Some of us have much thicker skin than others and can learn from being barked at. Others can only learn from someone patient teaching.
Those thinner skinned folks will be driven out of this subforum quickly and they just might have become very productive members had they been shown the way.

 

[Agent_H]

I like axes

Sorry, I do have something to say lol.

Besides highlighting, deleting, and sending, there was also coffee everywhere.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Recently on another forum there was a beginner who asked some really quite innocent questions and the thread devolved rapidly as a result of vitriolic condescension and he ended up requesting to have his account completely removed.