Toxic Carbon Fiber?

Peter Atwood

Peter Atwood

Joined
Oct 26, 2000
Messages
2,468
Recently there has been some discussion alluding to the dangers of using carbon fiber in knife making. People were posting things about how dangerous it was to work with and to take all sorts of precautions etc. The gist of it all was that you need to be suited up for space exploration before messing with this stuff.

Well, I was curious and just went out and looked at the MSDS sheet on carbon fiber. The information there states that this material is not carcinegenic and that the biggest dangers from it are from skin irritation and lung irritation from breathing dusts. The sheet went on to say that studies of mice exposed to dusts showed no signs of tumors resulting from exposure.

Sounds to me like this stuff is no big deal as long as you take the usual precautions of a dust mask and washing up after handling it. The sheet also mentioned that it is electrically conductive as I found out when I was grinding it and kept getting little shocks.

Anybody have any other sound information to add to this?

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Peter Atwood

email:fountainman@hotmail.com
 
I worked as a pipe welder on a carbon fiber factory and there are many toxic chemicals that are used in making the stuff. One of them is acrylinatril(spelling?)abreviated AN . This stuff had to be kept below 90 degrees F. or it would disipate into cyanide gas. They had big orange wind socks hanging around to let you know which way to run if they ever had a leak. I wouldn't know if the finished product would be toxic or not , but I imagine if you grind it or get it hot, you might want to be wearing some form of PPE. Acrylinatril is also a cancer causer .
 
I don't care what any spec sheet says, BREATHING ANY FOREIGN MATERIAL IS NOT GOOD FOR THE BODY. Remember companies are not going to say anything to hurt sales and independent lab opinons can be purchased.
 
Rick,

This is the MSDS we're talking about here, not anything from any company. The Material Safety Data Sheets tell you about materials and their dangers and are established by the US government to protect workers on the job. Now I hear what Seaplane is saying and do not doubt it for a minute. I am just trying to get to the bottom of this and see exactly how dangerous carbon fiber is to work with. I absolutely agree that foreign materials are bad for you and all precautions should be taken. The question is, for each of these materials what is the proper level of precautions?

I tend to be leery at first when people make pronouncements of toxicity about substances after going through a lot of nonsense with a potter's group that I work with. Potters are the world's biggest worry warts when it comes to chemicals and tend to go off the deep end when little or no hazard actually exists. Of course, they aren't working with plastics.....

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Peter Atwood

email:fountainman@hotmail.com
 
Everybody is right from what I can see. Peter is right on the money about the MSDS. I hadn't ever taken the time to look it up for carbon fiber. The data sheet is supposed to break things down from an unbiased stand-point.

It is paramount to protect yourself from all of the foreign substances we subject ourselves to as knifemakers... But I think that some people blow things up to the point that they negate an unfamiliar knifemaker's interest in using a new material.

Just a thought
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Nick
 
the biggest problem with carbon fiber is when it is released from the stuff its bonded with resin,epoxy. then it becomes a real health hazard there some carbon fiber that get in to the skin and will migrate to the bone
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this is more pevilant in the graphite and carbon boron fibers. think when grinding, dose any fibers get freed from its bonding sounds like a recipe for disaster i dont use this stuff but if i were you i would use the most prtection i could.
 
fountainman:

I don't believe carbon fiber would be available to the general public if it was so toxic that you could not work it without some sort of nuclear decontamination suit. Still, the dust and splinters will eventually irritate your skin and lungs. That is why a respirator (not a simple dust mask) is recommended when working with this stuff.

The only other thing I would add to your list of protective equipment is gloves. When sawing carbon fiber, you sometimes get little chards of the fiber sticking out from the edges. These splinters are rather sharp and can lodge into your skin. The first time I worked with this stuff, I got a splinter in my thumb. Within an hour it was red and sore. I can only assume what would happen if someone inhaled a bunch of microscopic carbon fiber splinters.

G10 usually doesn't splinter like carbon fiber. However, since it has a fiberglass cloth base, a respirator is still in order.

Some people can work with this stuff all day and it doesn't bother them. Maybe they are the same folks who can grind mother of pearl and cocobolo all day without any noticeable effect. Neither of those materials come with a MSDS sheet attached to them. And lots of people have gotten sick from working with them.

I think the point people are trying to stress when mentioning safety precautions to consider when working with certain knifemaking materials is not intended to scare people away. (It would be much simpler to say DON'T USE THIS STUFF!) To me, it is just a reminder to think about safety before you work with any new material. Nobody likes to see another maker get sick or hurt.

Unfortunately, many people don't know what a MSDS sheet is. So, they either rely on the advice of experienced makers when it comes to working with unfamiliar materials or face the consequences of finding out for themselves.

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives

[This message has been edited by Tom Anderson (edited 02-16-2001).]
 
Peter, thank you for raising the question about the real expected health hazards of carbon fiber, and providing MSDS information. I too get thrown off by information that may have been revised/embellished each time it was conveyed. Kind of like the children's game of telephone. Thanks again!
 
Maybe we should start thinking about the qualifications of the people who respond to these issues.

I've met makers who simply won't work with certain materials because of the "scary stories" they've heard. And there are those who can only speculate on these issues because they've never used a particular material. And there are those who had difficulty in working with a particular material the first time, so they simply gave up. And there are those who work with dangerous stuff all day long and don't seem to care about health hazards because the OSHA guy isn't standing behind them and they don't have the time to read any MSDS sheets.

I've only been working with carbon fiber for four years. If I thought it was too dangerous to work with because of what some people said, or because of of some reaction I had to it, I would have quit using it a long time ago.

Still, I've had enough exposure to carbon fiber dust and splinters to know about SOME (short term) health hazards. I wear safety glasses, a respirator, and gloves when working with it. I also have a dust collector that I turn on. Except for the gloves, I use the same precautions when I work with G-10, Micarta, and most other "dusty" materials. If these measures sound like an "over-reaction" to anybody, that's their privelege.



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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
I went back to the thread where I think this topic originated. I agree there could be some misperception about the need for a "space suit."
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The application I was talking about had to deal with a special room where very thick carbon fiber was being rapidly machined with CNC routers (using carbide cutters). Many, many cubic inches were being removed very rapidly and, thus, a considerable amount of dust and chards continually remained airborn - even with sophisticated dust collecting and filtration equipment. I think it doesn't take a great deal of imagination to reason why disposable clean suits and full respiratory gear were necessary in those circumstances. Who wants to lean into a pile of carbon fiber splinters?!

Grinding carbon fiber creates more dust than splinters, but profiling the edge of a piece of carbon fiber fresh from the saw might cause some splinters to go airborn. Even so, I don't wear a "space suit" when working with carbon fiber because I work with relatively small amounts at small workstations with dust collection and I clean up any residual dirt as I go. (Those Tyvek coveralls get too darn hot, anyway!)

I might get some traces of dust on my arms from time to time, but that comes off pretty easily with soap and water!
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
No matter what materials someone chooses to work with minimum safety precautions need to be exercised.With carbon fiber that includes safety glasses,gloves,dust mask,and long sleeves.I`ve seen people work around c.f. or years,myself included,with no ill effects and suddenly become sensitized to some component of it.This seems to happen more to people who are handling the material in it`s uncured state.Tom`s right.When major machining operations are being carried out it`s common to see people in so called space suits but for the amount of exposure common in knifemaking,I believe the basics as stated above are sufficient.
 
Tom, thanks for your informative responses to this and other forum threads. I think it would be a good idea for everyone to qualify their responses with statements such as: "I heard from somebody..."; "The past two years I have..."; "I work in a plant where...". This way I am not paying attention to questionable advice or ignoring good advice.
 
Andrew:

Thank you!

I try not to give advice on something I've never done or something I've never worked with. I feel that would be a direct reflection on how I represent the knives I make.

I also feel an obligation to share information with fellow enthusiasts who may not be aware of certain saftey issues. To me, safety is RULE #1. Knifemaking is dangerous enough as it is.

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Yep, I've got a number too!

I just want to keep the quality of life as good as it can be before I become dust.
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
if you read my reply i did mention that cf if relased from its fixant,ie resin and become's free airbourn particulates, then it becomes a health hazard and no where did i ever suggest wearing a spacesuit i have been in the USAF 17 years ive work around the stuff enough to take appropreite precautions
 
That's a great link, rotor! That section of the manual has information pertaining to the elements found in Micarta and G-10, too.

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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
Thanks Rotor. From my reading of the information you provided the chemicals used in the manufacturing process are of more concern then the dust created by cutting, shaping and finishing. Dust precautions seem to be minimal: wearing a mask and safety glasses. Please let me know if I missed anything (anyone). This is not exactly my field
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Andrew:

I'd still wear gloves between cutting this stuff on a bandsaw and grinding the perimeter! Those splinters can really be a pain to dig out!
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Tom Anderson
Hand Crafted Knives
 
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