Traditional/non-traditional sword designs

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Feb 7, 2000
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Just wondering what people's take is on traditional designs vs. non-traditional designs. I know some people swear by the designs which have a long history (katanas, for example), while others feel that modern designs are often a natural evolution from those early designs. My personal feeling is that the continued improvement upon these old designs (standing on the shoulders of giants, so to speak), while not as steeped in history, offers some 'real-world' advantages when it actually comes down to combat. Still, other people prefer swords which are patterned after the older designs, like katanas, gladiuses (gladii? I don't know how to correctly pluralise 'gladius'), etc.

What's your take on this? Do you prefer traditional sword designs, or non-traditional ones?

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
OK I'm gonna make this fairly simple, gonna post my opinion, and I'm not interested in hearing anyone respond to me.

I feel that swords of many styles have been forced into being obsolete due to firearms and other weaponry. Sure there are places in the world where blades like swords are still used in combat, but very rarely and usually different from the historical concepts.

I am a student of the Japanese sword, so I cannot voice too strong an opinion of other blades, but in Japan it is illegal to make swords that do not abide to the rules established following the end of World War II. This can be a somewhat limiting factor but it does have good intentions as well. The Japanese sword has evolved a bit here and there, but overall the concept, design, and use has remained the same for many hundreds of years. It is not the best way to make a general "sword" necessarily, but it is a damn fine way of making what it is and was and, with any hope, will remain to be.

I am sick of seeing people take the style of katana, warp it into something else, change the cross sections, the shape, the design, the assembly, practically everything, then proclaim how wonderful they are because they can flex without breaking. There is one man I know that makes Japanese-style blades that I respect that has an ultra-high level of flex to them. But he still maintains SO many facets of the craft. In collecting and understanding swords, one of the most important things in a Japanese sword is its cross section, the edge geometry. It's shape, balance, all of that. What made the Japanese sword special was the arts utilizing it. I think part of the reason I respect the Japanese sword so much is because it requires good technique, which requires luck or training to use. I do not like seeing people making hollow-ground blades, curved with one edge, automatically called a katana. It sickens me. I feel it is very disrespectful to the concept of the craft, something that has been preserved and established over a very long time.

Since the sword's time as a battle weapon IMO has passed, we should not try to continue improving upon it by making what they think is better. You want to make a single edged curved sword out of 3v with a paracord-wrapped micarta handle and a round guard and all that? Fine, but don't call it by a name that it doesn't deserve.

And I do not care about the argument "well if they had this and this, they would have used it." We don't know what they would have used, and if they used something that could really take a beating and not take damage, etc. I doubt that the Japanese sword arts would have even really existed as they are. To me the Japanese style sword is what it is...there are concepts and purposes that it maintains, and there are some makers in North America who do a good job at respecting those. I honor those makers. I do not mind people making different blade styles at all...expanding upon what was around in the past. But I will NEVER support those people calling their creations by names that they do not qualify as.

I've rambled a bit, and I'm sorry. I will not continue discussing this further in post format, because it is a little nerve that tends to get stepped on a lot. If you have a shred of decency, do not respond to my post.

Shinryû.
 
Actually, I want to respond to your post. I feel quite the same way. If it isn't a katana, but you call it that, someone is going to buy it expecting a katana, and be sorely disappointed (assuming they actually know the difference, and aren't just some kid 'pretending to be a ninja').

Just in case anyone has the worng impression of my post, the question is not about non-traditional swords being called by the names of traditional swords, but about newer designs vs. older designs, irregardless of what name they are called by.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
From my understanding, when Japan went "modern" after Perry's visit...a lot of swordmakers and those who made parts for them where thrown out of business. Just as the Samurai found themselves without rank, position or means of support. So by 1875, swordmaking in Japan was very nearly destroyed. However, this changed and the art was kept alive. After WW2, it was another way of keeping the time honored ways alive so they would not be lost again.

But getting back to European Swords, by what do you mean by new designs? For Kirby and many others, it is "form and function". You can see and buy just about as many "fantasy" style swords with all kinds of spikes, extra long grips, split blades, special metals and what have you. That might look good for looks but in actual use? No.

Kirby will make some fantasy style swords but up to a point, precisely for that reason.
There is a reason for certain blade lengths, hilt designs, steels and overall composition that you can have alot of leeway with but cannot over do without making a sword look awkward or feel awkward.

A matter of esthetics.

If you are talking about different metals or steels or composites. There are metallurgical reasons why certain steels, like Tool and Stainless are not good for Sword blades. Some steels are best for shorter knife blades but not really for longer ones. Patternwelded ("Damascus") was a compromise to get a better blade with some carbon steel twisted with softer iron. Yes, it looks good and it was used but the higher carbon/Spring Steels are far better and quickly subplanted it.



 
There were several branch after Perry'd come to Japan, while war time. Most mass-pro swords were not katana but katana-type blades, some swordsmith had a success with spring steel in Manchuri, called "Manshu Kotetsu", after a famous katana name. After WWII katana became a kind of artistic substanse, they are now of no collectible value.
For practical purpose? We will not see which style of "evolved" katanas is more practical than others unless we have battlefield that demands blade to fight with.


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\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 
Okay, I guess I wasn't quite clear. What I'm interested in is people's opinions on swords which are direct copies of those made 'way back when' (how far back that is depends on the particular sword) and swords which are made according to newer ideas. While these non-traditional swords may share some similarities with older sword designs, they can definitely be told apart from replicas of period pieces.

Just wondering if people prefer recreations of historic swords, or newer designs (practical, not fantasy, though).

For example, there was a recent thread discussing the 'ninja sword' which is seen so often nowadays. Obviously, some of these are just fantasy pieces, but they do give me ideas. Personally, I prefer a straighter, slightly shorter blade than a traditional katana, while retaining at hand-and-a-half or two-handed grip. That put me in the 'non-traditional' category. There are also those who prefer a traditional katanas. I was just curious as to whether others find themselves looking mostly at the traditional designs or more modern designs.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
I like traditional designs and updated modern design incorporating old with new.I can't say any one new design is better or worse since I like most people have no experience putting blades into combat or mock fighting.As far as the looks or how I think a design will perform,as I said I appreciate the traditional/non-traditional both.
 
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