Trail hiking/running shoes suitable for someone with bad knees?

Inazone

Inazone

Joined
Aug 27, 2012
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The "someone" in the title is me. In recent years, I have really come to enjoy hiking, including some fairly difficult trails up in Minnesota's "North Shore" area near Lake Superior, the Canadian border, etc. The impact of jogging on pavement or on treadmills has always been pretty rough due to a knee injury from my youth that went undetected (by doctors, not by me) and untreated, and after my first time doing an extended hike on rough terrain (Brule River in Magney State Park) was pretty bad as well. I've started working on getting myself in better hiking shape by using elliptical machines and exercise bikes at the gym, and it has paid off when I've gone hiking, but think I'd benefit from more supportive shoes.

Any suggestions that would be suitable for both hiking and some off-pavement running? Are there specific insoles or maybe some sort of commercially available knee brace that would be worth buying?
 
You might find the book born to run by christopher mcdougal interesting.

The gist is that too much padding in modern footwear has allowed people to adopt unhealthy running styles. People adopted a running style where they take long strides landing on their heels; instead of taking short strides landing on the balls of their feet. This causes knee problems. The human leg is like a big shock absorber. Rolling from the balls of your feet you absorb energy gradually through the roll, the arches of your feet, the ankles, knees etc. Landing on the heels with long strides delivers crushing force to the padding in your heel and cartilage in the knee joint. No shock absorption present. It doesn't help that most people run on asphalt. The solution: Get rid of the padded shoes. Running barefoot makes the long stride + heel strike painful. You quickly adopt a more natural running style. Take shorter steps, roll from the balls of your feet, and stick to soft trails.
 
Give the Brooks Cascadias a try. I have version 7 & 8 and I love them for hiking and daily wear.
 
I disagree completely. Everyone's foot anatomy is different. Flat feet, high arches will effect your ability to even use running as a form of weight control. Having imperfect arches is a recipe for busted up joints and overstretched ilio tibial bands. There's only a very small population with the ideal foot and ankle physiology that is appropriate for barefoot style running.


http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/barefoot-running-problems


The cascadia are excellent as are new balance trail runners. Brooks, new balance, and saucony have been my favorites as well as Nike airs which have superb cushioning but are a bit stiff.
 
Barefoot is one way to go, but its a commitment, and will take a lot of very careful training to avoid injury. As much as I like my fivefingers, they are not for everyone, or for every situation.

To help your injury, you might want to look into custom orthotic inserts, or even just the oven-bake variety. If your ankles are aligned, your knees have half a chance to be. if your arches or your ankles are rolled, all that leverage is lateral against the knee, its like running your car out of alignment.
Whatever shoes you go with, make sure you can afford to replace them. worn out shoes are just as damaging as poor fitting ones. Once the padding is gone, you might as well be barefoot. I've heard both ways on ankle support, some like it, some don't. I prefer taller boots with softer soles. I'm not in a rush, so I like to feel a bit whats below me. A rigid sole will give more support, and if you can fully relax your foot to not fight against it, they can be very helpful. But I thing the general trend is away from those sorts of things. The lighter everything is, the less energy you use, the less tired your muscles. That goes for your pack as well, its all connected (funny how many people don't seem to realize that)

Keep up the work on strength at the gym, but for hiking, take every advantage you can get. The thing I've seen with some athletes, is they train with the wrappings, and then play without, I feel it should be the other way around, since you want all those little flexor muscles to get stronger, but on the average day out, you want to protect them, since every injury is another setback. And listen to your body, I've worked with so many athletes who have tried to "play through" an minor injury, and then get a worse injury when the pain tightened things up.

As for knee braces, even just a good fitting elastic sleeve can help hold everything in place. Its all about geometry, as long as the bones are in the right spot, they are fine. Get things out of alignment, and they tend to lever themselves apart and cause tissue damage.

I'm not a pro by any means, just worked with a few junior sports teams for a couple seasons. But it amazes me how many "rules" people follow that just don't work. And I also have a jacked up back that I have no idea how to fix. So take my advice for what its worth.
 
gadgetgeek said:
Barefoot is one way to go, but its a commitment, and will take a lot of very careful training to avoid injury. As much as I like my fivefingers, they are not for everyone, or for every situation.

To help your injury, you might want to look into custom orthotic inserts, or even just the oven-bake variety. If your ankles are aligned, your knees have half a chance to be. if your arches or your ankles are rolled, all that leverage is lateral against the knee, its like running your car out of alignment.
Whatever shoes you go with, make sure you can afford to replace them. worn out shoes are just as damaging as poor fitting ones. Once the padding is gone, you might as well be barefoot. I've heard both ways on ankle support, some like it, some don't. I prefer taller boots with softer soles. I'm not in a rush, so I like to feel a bit whats below me. A rigid sole will give more support, and if you can fully relax your foot to not fight against it, they can be very helpful. But I thing the general trend is away from those sorts of things. The lighter everything is, the less energy you use, the less tired your muscles. That goes for your pack as well, its all connected (funny how many people don't seem to realize that)

Keep up the work on strength at the gym, but for hiking, take every advantage you can get. The thing I've seen with some athletes, is they train with the wrappings, and then play without, I feel it should be the other way around, since you want all those little flexor muscles to get stronger, but on the average day out, you want to protect them, since every injury is another setback. And listen to your body, I've worked with so many athletes who have tried to "play through" an minor injury, and then get a worse injury when the pain tightened things up.

As for knee braces, even just a good fitting elastic sleeve can help hold everything in place. Its all about geometry, as long as the bones are in the right spot, they are fine. Get things out of alignment, and they tend to lever themselves apart and cause tissue damage.

I'm not a pro by any means, just worked with a few junior sports teams for a couple seasons. But it amazes me how many "rules" people follow that just don't work. And I also have a jacked up back that I have no idea how to fix. So take my advice for what its worth.
Click to expand...

Yup, you hit a lot of good points in your first sentence. I posted about barefoot running so the OP can check it out and evaluate it for himself.

To be clear running barefoot is not for everyone. There is a learning curve and it takes time to adjust. I started out just walking around in the forest to get used to the idea. Then I walked around some more barefoot to strengthen the muscles I had not used for most of my life. After that I went for light jogs on the grass. Running on asphalt or other hard surfaces will no doubt cause damage. I use normal running shoes on asphalt.

Probably the best advice I can give is to get shoes that fit your feet. Not ones that fit other peoples feet.
 
For actual personal favorites that might not fit your foot. I have wide flat feet, I am currently on my not sure how many pairs of Saucony excursion TRs they are my favorite runner, they are meant for trail but I use them for running around the neighborhood and once every so often I break out my normal sneakers which I wear around just for walking and my commute from the 'burbs to NYC which are the Brooks Pure Cadence. These are offset minimal padded sneakers that are offset and they work really well with my flat feet. Warning about the Pure Cadence they break down after 3 months of use but I really enjoy them. They feel like a thick pair of comfy memory foam socks which I know don't exist but that's what they feel like.
 
Inazone,
I suggest you go to a Redwing Shoe dealer in your area, have your feet properly measured first and then check out their selection of shoes and boots.
I'm 62 years old and have had total knee replacement. I learned the importance of correct footwear as a infantryman in the military many years ago and spent over thirty years as a wildland firefighter.
You get what you pay for... buy the best footwear you can afford. Also, buy quality socks to wear that wick away moisture from your feet, I personally like Thorlo brand hiking socks.
 
I'm a big fan of Sole insoles--blue if they fit well in your shoe/boot, otherwise red. The extra couple bucks for the antimicrobial versions is worth it imo. They are heat moldable (I don't mold mine though--they fit my high arches just fine out of the box) and have been my go-to insole for just about everything. For trail runners, I like the Brooks Cascadia, and for pavement, Asics Gel Nimbus. I don't like hiking in anything with mesh for more than a day or two though--dust tends to get between my toes and causes abrasions that lead to blisters. I usually hike in wide Lowa Renegade leather-lined boots (non-goretex model) for this reason, but have put hundreds of miles on the Brooks Cascadia successfully.

I have a torn meniscus with flap, previously torn (but now healed) LCL, and recurrent problems with severe IT Band Syndrome and Extensor Tendonitis. Lots of stretching, Triple Flex, fish oil, Sole insoles, and solid footwear have let me hike 15+ miles/day with a pack for several days at a time without pain (my max so far is 18 days). I don't use knee braces anymore because they aggravate my IT bands, but when I did I used the Protec short sleeves because they were the only ones that would stay in place. It took me over a year of trial and error (and strength training) to find what works for me, and it couldn't have been more worth it.
 
No offense taken there Sideways. I agree with your second post fully. I posted what I did because many in the barefoot crowd have drunk the koolaid and don't really give an unbiased opinion, and when searching it can be hard to find contrary information on barefooting that isn't just "its bad". Maybe thats changed since I looked, but I figured I'd throw in some personal experience. Its all good.
 
The elastic knee braces or supports work. Buy yourself one or two depending on how many weak knees you have. They work. Their major failing is they're hot.

Buy good hiking shoes that fit. Walk on the balls of your feet versus the heel.

Use a walking stick or two. Helps a lot especially on downhill terrain walking.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I did start using a walking stick when hiking, which helped a lot on hills, and I've experimented with a few different hiking boots with varying success. However, all of them are pretty bulky and not suited toward running. I'm not inclined to run barefoot, so I'll check out some dedicated trail running shoes and maybe some insoles and knee brace(s).
 
Good stuff. Keep at it, as I'm sure you are finding, the healthier you get, the better everything else gets too.
 
I dont have bad knees ,I have bad feet . I have a crushed heel and battle with heel spurs, arches ache and gout rears its ugly head occasionally. I also have narrow feet so if your feet are wide these may not be a good consideration. I found that air Nikes give a lot of shock absorption . Ive never had the trail runners but my female cousin , who has hiked all three trails , continental divide, Appalachian and I think Pacific northwest wears them. I wear Air Nike running shoes myself , they have lots of cushioning and good traction , but my hikes are short a few miles at the most. For added support I use New Balance inserts. These are not cheap Dr Scholes type things. They are very well made .They are rather expensive though. New Balance makes several diiferent ones for different feet. I think I wear the sport ones.

Air Nikes teamed with New Balance inserts have kept me active.
 
Before you run a single step, get checked out my a docter. Sound silly but that fat and lazy lifestyle takes it toll. Just because you want to start running , doesn't mean you can, should or will survive it. If the doc gives you the go ahead ...... be honest, just like in your 4x4, the one thing that will detsroy hips, knees and legs is excess weight. Are you overweight? Make a plan to loose it and use low impact excercises .... elliptical machines, walking and cycling. It will strengthen your heart, tone leg muscles and increase your cardio funtioning. Irrespective on where you start, it won't be a short term commitment ...... loosing more than 3 lbs a week is false economy. It must be sustainable!

If you have weird/broken/flat/crazy or whatever feet that don't respond well to general shoes, see a bio kinetic specialists to get some help .... check your stride, gate, step, foor and ankle and a load shed more. He/She wil give answers than none on this forum can give without hands on checking it.

Be patient, don't quit and be realistic!! The rewards are worth it!!

Cheers from Africa

Aubrey
 
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I know it doesn't directly address the question, but a fairly recent study in the British Journal of Sports Medicine may well have some bearing:

Influence of midsole hardness of standard cushioned shoes on running-related injury risk.

Conclusion of this research - It makes no difference. It is useless for predicting RRI. If you want a predictor of Running Related Injury a far more fruitful predictor of protective factors is A] how much have they done it before, and B] weekly volume of other sporting stuff undertaken.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2...ract?sid=bcffd977-24cd-4a01-8c3b-24b16d0c9baa
 
Iv been researching this for myself and the general consensus is that massaging gel insoles really help with bad knees as they stop the shock!
 
I'm a long time trail runner and have destroyed my knees from running down mountains over the years. My advice to you is pick up a pair of Hoka Oneone challenger atr trail shoes or the Hoka Mafate . Honestly any hoka trail shoe will be good. They are ugly as hell but awesome. Super cushioned, light, and the tread is good. I run all through the green mountains with them on a regular basis. They have changed my life and my knees honestly.
 
Inazone said:
The "someone" in the title is me. In recent years, I have really come to enjoy hiking, including some fairly difficult trails up in Minnesota's "North Shore" area near Lake Superior, the Canadian border, etc. The impact of jogging on pavement or on treadmills has always been pretty rough due to a knee injury from my youth that went undetected (by doctors, not by me) and untreated, and after my first time doing an extended hike on rough terrain (Brule River in Magney State Park) was pretty bad as well. I've started working on getting myself in better hiking shape by using elliptical machines and exercise bikes at the gym, and it has paid off when I've gone hiking, but think I'd benefit from more supportive shoes.

Any suggestions that would be suitable for both hiking and some off-pavement running? Are there specific insoles or maybe some sort of commercially available knee brace that would be worth buying?
Click to expand...


Long time hiker, skier and cyclist. Several knee surgeries and several braces. More footwear than knives (and that's saying something). I still have more skis though. Anyway...

"Bad knees" is pretty vague. Knees can hurt in lots of different ways for lots of different reasons. My recommendation is to find a good ortho and a good PT and be ready to learn more about the mechanics of your knees, why they hurt and what you can do to fix it. We can talk in terms of generalities but they may not help your specific problem and in some cases, may make your particular problem worse.

Here are some general statements....

Loosing weight from your gut or pack can help your knees.

A good exercise program (possibly combined with PT) can help your knees.

A desk or driving job can cause a loss of hip stabilization, which can cause glute/hamstring dysfunction, which can lead to over-reliance on your quads which can hurt your knees.

Lighter footwear is usually easier on your knees.

Good footbeds or orthodics can help maintain lower leg alignment, which can help your knees. Superfeet are a generally good place to start with foot beds.

I wish I could say that every ortho doctor and every PT is good. It's not true. I had to see several before getting on the right track. But as slow and frustrating as the process may be, it's a lot better than stumbling around on your own sort of hit and miss.
 
Seems there are a couple of assumptions being made: that you are overweight, and that you need/are looking to run. All I see is that you are 'looking to get in better hiking shape' and that you are looking for running/hiking shoes. You mention running on treadmills in the past which is hard on the knees, but the rest of the post seems to be focused on hiking (lots of people are recommending approach/trail-running shoes these days). Is this the case? It helps to clarify your situation when seeking any advice.

First bit of advice should be to stop running, especially on any hard surfaces. You need to give your knees a break and figure out what is causing the pain.

Second bit of advice is to seriously consider what you are buying first, don't just try things haphazardly hoping it will work out. Custom orthotics and a pair of shoes may cost you as much or more than a custom pair of boots, and may not be as good for your feet. In fact, I doubt orthotics will do a lot if you're getting poor fitting boots.

If you are overweight you may have wide feet. In any case if you have non-standard feet then off-the-shelf boots may be causing you problems. If your shoes don't fit properly then your knees may be compensating. Sideways touched on this with running technique and support. A similar thing arises with ankle support. If you are not using your ankles on rocks and roots then you may be turning with your knees, this is the tradeoff with high-support boots.

That is not to say that high boots are necessarily bad as many people swear by a 10" boot and say that they will fix knee and back problems (I think this may be due to them fitting properly rather than the style of boot itself). Some prefer a heel like smoke jumpers/logging boots while others prefer a flat sole similar to ironworker boots.

A couple of companies that make custom boots like this are Viberg (Canada) and Nick's Boots. There are no better made boots in the world. They can do basically anything you need and Viberg make hiking boots and dress shoes along with their work boots (I think Nick's may as well). The cost may seem high at first but you have to consider that these boots will fit your feet just like custom orthotics and the boots can last 10-20 years as opposed to the 6 months-2 years you will get out of the Chinese-made boots out there. They give you all the info you need to measure your feet if you have to do it by mail.

Other options are Zamberlans, Asolo, and AKU for good quality off-the-shelf boots. They are all made in Europe, I think. Worth looking into how to properly fit your boots as well. Basically you want the widest part of your foot at the widest part of the boot for natural bending of the boot at its hinge, just slightly long in the toe so that your toes don't crumple on hills (about an index finger's width, and just the slightest amount of heel movement so that it is neither tight nor rubbing. You want the width to be supportive, but you do not want a tight fit, especially in the length.

If you want a safe option which will teach you walking similar to barefoot you can go with moccasins. They offer some protection but you will still have to watch wear you walk much more closely. I find them dangerously slippery in snow or the wet. With caulked (spiked) boots you will get a similar result. You don't want to tear them up on rocks and you don't want to step on your gear around camp, so you must think like barefoot walking much of the time.

And without spending any money on extra footwear you can just be very contemplative while you hike, take your time trying not to sweat and walk as if you're thinking through each step. Maybe pretend you are lost and have to be careful getting home.

As far as getting in shape goes, the most important lesson you can learn is that cardio is overrated. Everyone does cardio, it's what all the doctors in the news advise, but it is against basic common sense. Just ask yourself, 'what takes more energy, jogging a mile or carrying 100 pounds in 5 intervals of 100 yards (farmer's carry)?' The answer should be pretty obvious, all of the highest calorie-burning activities are a mix of strength and cardio and any machine-focused cardio is actually limiting the amount of force you are putting out.

And what's more important is that activities like power/olympic lifting, boxing/mma, chopping wood use much more energy throughout the rest of the day when you are recovering. Cardio does not take much recovery time at all and in order to get good cardio you need to increase your mental and physical capacity to do that work - lifting heavy weights and/or martial arts activity will increase your endurance much better than cardio alone.

Another problem could be an inconsistency between your muscles. You could have stronger calves or quads compared to your hamstrings and this imbalance can cause knee pain/tendon strain. Cardio will never fix this problem, and may cause a severe injury. The only way to fix this is to strengthen the weak areas and create a balance. To do this you will need to do strength exercises with a knowledgeable person. It is possible to tell in a squat if you have weak hamstrings (may actually be a hip problem), generally you will be weak at the bottom, tend towards leaning forward, and have a hard time following through with glutes.

You will have to be very careful with squats and deadlifts if you have knee problems, and you may have to do exercises focused on your knees, bodyweight only. But whatever you do...

DO NOT USE MACHINES. This is because machines force your body to conform to the machine; free weights and olympic bars make the weight conform to your body, and it is well known that free weights can help repair joint problems.

Look up "Starting Strength" for a basic understanding of form. But you should get proper instruction rather than doing it on your own. I would also advise against following medical exercises as they will be geared toward alleviating symptoms rather than curing the problem. If you can get advice from professional athletic trainers then that is the only medical advice you should take.

I would also look up Muay Thai or MMA warmups. Generally skipping for five minutes and then limbering up every joint in the body. You may want to just do cardio/hiking so it's a good idea to warm up properly and get juices flowing into the knees. If strength training just isn't your thing, an alternative is to ramp up the weight in your pack gradually and go for shorter hikes.

The Flexor knee braces work pretty good, although maybe there's something better. Good luck.
 
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