Training Knives

Hi all!!

I'm curious to hear some opinions on training knives.

This past weekend was our knife fighting seminar, which went really well by the way. A couple of the participants had training knives that very closely resembled a Spyderco Endura. One was some sort of molded resin model, and the other was one of Bob Burgees aluminum trainers (only available through KIL). Obviously both were intended to imitate the Endura. Neither closed btw.

I'd never seen any need to have my trainer resemble my EDC THAT CLOSELY, so my question is: The coolness factor aside, how closely do think a trainer should resemble your EDC and why?

Thanks,

Dave Fulton

------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


 
I have some knives that resemble what i carry and some not. I have training folders too. I like to practice with somthing close to what i would use, gives a better sense of distance and timing, also harder to practice disarms with smaller knives so you need to be percise. we practice counters to drawing and we grapple with knives. alot of fun.
 
Practice knives should be as identical as possible. If one has identical trainers then indexing of the knife, the braille method comes into play..the balance and feel and tactile sense is the same giving a sense of familiarity to the usage.
My company DRAGON'S TOOTH makes Resin trainers with identical handles to the originals including clips if its a folder...obviously the blades are thicker so as no to break but they have real grind lines..the closer to reality the better the "feel". I designed functional trainer to go with my f real knife beacuse I feel it is imperative to understand the reality of what one is using. A sort of, or its close, or it represents a blade is lacking the realioty factor. We move from Resin, to functional trainer ..to dulled real..I prefer a special designed trainer that except for a non cutting blade is identical to the real knife.
Ask the guys at the seminar this wekend for example in NC,,first they used Randall model 1-7. model 14, or model 16 resin fighters them we moved directly to training drones..Enduras with no edge specially ground down...we used real Enduras at the seminar to see cutting...
so yes.. trainers as real as the possible.
 
D

Dave Fulton

Joined
Feb 11, 1999
Messages
568
Bram,

Does your company have a website? If so, I'd like to check it out.

Thanks,

Dave

P.S. Although I always tried to get pretty close with trainers, I never thought it was necessary to have an exact match. Food for thought, and maybe something to add to my Christmas list. Bram, Kaliman ... my wife is gonna be p*ssed at you guys!!
wink.gif
 
Bram, how do you train with the Endura trainers? (the ones with the blades ground down) It seems these can still cause bodily harm to a training partner.

please explain how they are used. I was thinking of grinding off the edge of one for training also, but thought it would still be too dangerous for a training partner.

thanks.
henry
 
I really HATE grinding down a real blade for the Endura, ASFCK, mini AFCK and Delica..all are hollow ground to start with. That leaves a thin edge that must be rounded off and polished to make it smooth. I totally blunt and round off the tip.
SAFE? Hell they are real knives and I don't allow them to be used UNSUPERVISED!Yes..they hurt..but the feel of steel running up ones arms during practice sends shivers down ones spine..Reality sets in..that it COULD HAVE BEEN REAL!These are not toys and too many people want to "spar" full contact style with knives..won't happen..The training is too intense..either the trainees get broken or the trainers get broken,, In real time there is no pushing on the blades or casual contact..in real time its casual AND CUT..
I prefer RESIN..I'm not a wood guy..I made wooden knives, very realidstivc for the Modern Arnis Fedrreation for several years..I made them originally for me, them my students then it spread..Same with the Resin knives..TACTICAL KNIVES Magzaine called them some of the best trainers out there..Hock, Datu Kelly,Janich, Keating , Inosanto, Prof Presas and others have my resin knives... SEAL Team #2 has my AFCK trainers..
When my back is healed I will pour more for sale and I will make sure that BLADEFORUMS Store has them..
 
By the way..I make
RANDALLS: model# 1-2-14-15-16
Cold Steel: Peacekeeper and Tanto
SOG :Sog Tech Seal team
Spyderco: Delica , Endura
Benchmade: AFCK, Emerson AFCK mini
Western: Bowie
there are more masters made with no molds made yet...
knives are $25 retail each..All are hand poured and hand ground finished.Real grinds on blades with realistic-identical handles.
 
Disregard.

[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 18 December 1999).]
 
Bram,

I hope your back heals up soon. Please post a message here and the other tactical forums when you get some trainers ready. No doubt, you'll have some takers.

I want to second JRF's comment about eye protection, and further emphasize to wear eye protection when working with ANY type of trainer. Wood, rubber, aluminum, resin, whatever. A while back, one of our guys forgot his one day while doing "tapping & passing" drills and narrowly escaped loosing his eye to an aluminum trainer (the tip hit the bone edge surrounding the eye socket). I personally had an aluminum trainer flip up into my face last week when I goofed a disarm. I watched it fly (tip first) into the lense of my racquet ball goggles.

I harp on this only because I don't hear a lot of people address the eye protection issue wrt their training.

Since we're on the subject, what types of eye protection do you guys use? We wear racquet ball goggles.

Btw, I can't believe people try to train full contact with training blades. We use rubber knives some of Bob Burgee's aluminum trainers for various drills, but for full contact we use short (10" - 12") rattan or hard wood sticks.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."




[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 18 November 1999).]
 
No goggles..no training on my floor. I try to do that at seminars..one can fix, teeeth, cuts, bumps bruises...
ANY training implement can cause eye damage..
I have had shattered eye orbit, knife in eye, stickes in eye etc..
Once ..like a real dodo, I had goggles on my head, not on face, started doing drill with grandmaster and got stuck in the side of my eye orbit.. I looked very stupid with this blade sticking out of my face...luckily it wasn't my eye..soooo
Dallas model goggles from lEADER or if one wears glasses Vision2 goggles from Leader.
again the rule is no goggles no training.. I will start doing that at seminars as well..all participants MUST bring or buy goggles to wear!
 
Disregard.

[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 18 December 1999).]
 
The Boker/Al Mar rubber trainers are nice because you can do full power thrusts to the body without breaking ribs or causing some other damage. The rubber will cause small cuts or abrasions to the skin sometimes. I received two of those cuts to my arm during a little sparring with a co-worker on my lunch break. On a good draw cut, it feels like if the knife is pulling the hair off your arm! :-) I wonder how bad that cut would have been if it was a live blade? I think using the rubber trainer allows a person to get realistic training without breaking stuff. Does anyone else like the AMK/Boker trainers?
 
I like the hard rubber knives for sparring. I cut my personal one down to 4" blade length to approximate my folders.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Dave Fulton:

Wouldn't the rattan or hardwood knives do more damage to the hands than a rubber trainer would? I'm just picturing a snap cut with a piece of rattan or hardwood to the hand! Sounds very painful to me. That could probably break the small bones of the hand. Although, the rattan or hardwood would be safer for thrusts to the body, I think...


------------------
K. Williams
kel620@aol.com
Modern Arnis Student
 
KWilliams,

For full contact sparring, we wear lacrosse gloves and forearm pads as well as special head gear. This particular sparring is meant to develop your ability to deliver a powerful cut or thrust, at full speed, while avoiding your opponent's attack. As you progress, you eliminate the forearm pads and eventually the gloves. I still wear both of course
wink.gif


The rattan/wood stick is safer than an aluminum/metal trainer for thrusts, but can easily produce: broken collar bones, ribs, hands, skull fractures (if your head gear fails in some way). They can kill or cripple you. Besides, a rubber knife wouldn't make that "clanggggggggg" sound as a rattan/wood stick when it hits that head gear
wink.gif
It's especially fun to land head shots when using pakal (aka "reverse" "ice-pick") grip
smile.gif


I wish I had a digital camera because I have a few really nice bruises from knife sparring over the weekend
wink.gif


Dave Fulton

------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."




[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 22 November 1999).]
 
I carry a kerambit with me at all times. The blade that i train with is kelly wordons DTL kerambit thats umbreakable plastic. You can do all of your throws and lock ups with it, and it feels really close to the real thing.
Paul
 
Dave Fulton:

I know what you mean by the "clang" sound! I guess you use WEKAF/Doce Pares headgear too. There's nothing like the sound of a stick hitting that face grill! It definitely gets your attention.



------------------
K. Williams
kel620@aol.com
Modern Arnis Student
 
KWilliams,

No, we don't use the WEKAF head gear. Ours were specially made from heavy guage stainless steel mesh and stainless steel bands welded together. It's patterned after a western style fencing mask.

They were made several years ago after failed attempts to reinforce regular (western) fencing masks and WEKAF masks. I've never used either, but understand that my guro injured people in the past because of the inadequacies of these types of head gear and the power that he generates.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."




[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 23 November 1999).]
 
I was told by my Guro that WEKAF stopped thrusts and punyos because of former fights where the rattan split on the headgear and entered the mask. Are the faces of your helmets completely covered with a fine mesh to protect the eyes, etc. from thrusts?



------------------
K. Williams
kel620@aol.com
Modern Arnis Student
 
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