translucent arkansas stones

Khukuri Monster

Khukuri Monster

Joined
Aug 4, 2004
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Has anybody used a translucent or hard black arkansas stone for honing? I became interested in them after seeing Tai Goo's thread on "hair sculpture": http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28666

The translucent stones are just a special grade of the hard black which Tai used. Normally, the stones are quite expensive. On one site which sells these stones, an 8"x2" stone goes for over $120. (http://www.danswhetstone.com/bench_stones.htm)

On eBay though (of course), one guy sells "seconds" which are stones that have minor flaws which you can work around. These stones are a lot cheaper, seems like they go for around $20 shipped for an 8x2.

I was thinking of picking one of these second quality stones up. I already have a DMT double-sided diamond stone in 600/1200 grit though, so I don't know if it would be a waste of money.
 
Just a thought...Since you already have an excellent fine honing surface, put the $120 in an envelop and wait. A decent belt sander for convexing ain't much more....
 
Khukuri Monster said:
Has anybody used a translucent or hard black arkansas stone for honing? I became interested in them after seeing Tai Goo's thread on "hair sculpture"

I was thinking of picking one of these second quality stones up. I already have a DMT double-sided diamond stone in 600/1200 grit though, so I don't know if it would be a waste of money.
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Yes. I have one. albeit a small one, still works for small knives like the new Queen D-2 blade trapper I recently got from Cumberland's.:D
If you just absolutely have to have a superfine whetstone I very much endorse and recommend the Spyderco, Incorporated's Ceramic fine grit and ultra fine grit whetstones.
I have 'em both in a 2" x 8" size, got 'em on sale for cheap, $10.00 a piece!!!!!!!:D :cool: ;)

The Spydie's have a couple or more of advantages:
One, they're cheaper by far.:D
Two, the ultra fine is probably as fine a grit as the Arkansas.
Three, they don't require the use of oil or water.:cool:
Four, they clean up with Comet or other cleanser and a nylon pad.
Five, they come in a decent and substantial plastic box with a lid.
Six, they will put a highly polished edge on your knife.

After seeing mine at the SWKK Svashtar, aka Norm was so impressed he bought one.:D

Downside?
Really not practical for use on a khukuri.:rolleyes: :p ;)
One of the downsides for the hard Arkansas is that unless handled with EXTREME care they will chip along the corners. Not that it hurts that much and especially if it's a wide stone.
I haven't had that experience with my ceramics of yet.
 
I have used a variety of Arkansas stones over the years, including stones from Dans and by Norton. I like them very much for knives and for carving tools. I have a very old black hard stone by Norton, a "true hard" from Dans, a hard select from Dans, and a new translucent from Norton. Oh, I have an excellent small black hard, 2 1/12 by 4 from Garrett Wade. I also have an antique small hard black.
Norton stones are generally thought to be the highest quality. The Dans stones are pretty good also.
Since the stones are natural, there will be some variation in quality. You can use water for the hard stones, and I have a soft Arkansas by Norton that I reserve for use with water. You don't really need large Arkansas stones, since they can be reserved for final sharpening.
In terms of the ultimate edge produced, the finest are the black hard, with the order as:
1. Black Hard
2. Translucent
(True hard seem to overlap the above - mine is like a black hard)
3. Dan Hard Select - will produce the finest edge you need on a knife. Not quite good enough for a plane iron. I have one that is 10X3X1.
4. Soft Arkansas by Norton. I have a few of these. The new ones vary. Some produce a shaving edge, some are not as good. My older Norton soft Arkasas is comparable to the Dans hard select).
The Lee book claims that there are inclusions in the black hard stones. I have seen this in the very cheap stones from Halls. I don't think that this would affect sharpening a knife, but would be a problem for tools.
If you want a Norton tanslucent, you can get an 8X3X1/2 stone from thebestthings.com for less than a second at Dans. The Museum of Woodworking Tools has a black hard Norton of the same size.
Some of the other stones sold by Woodcraft or Garrett Wade do not have an adequate finish on them. You will spend months trying to surface them. Any stone by Norton will be great. The first quality Dans stones are also excellent. The Dans stones were a better buy when they had them for 20% off. I have never tried the "bargain" Dans stones.
I use both water stones and oil stones. Don't believe the published grit charts. Hard black is about like a 4000-6000 grit waterstone. The 2000 grit Shapton will produce an edge that is about like a cheap Norton fine India oilstone - for 4X the cost.
 
I have a large black one, gives a very fine almost mirror finish. It used to belong to my grandfather, it is very old and bears the scars of being beat up in a shop for about 15 years after he passed on before I found it covered under a layer of dust. Using it bring back fond memories, however just from a sharpening perspective, there are far more inexpensive choices which will allow an equal or better edge. You can buy micron laping paper for example for pennies a sheet.

-Cliff
 
Much of what you spend depends on what you want to sharpen, and what you like doing.
I have cheap King waterstones that give you an edge as fine as a hard black. But, I don't use them on carving tools. You can get an 8000 grit waterstone for much less than a Norton hard black, but I don't like using them on knives. It gives you a better edge than a hard black. I like to push the blade into the stone, and the blade cuts the soft stones.
Waterstones are great for plane irons and wide chisels.
You don't really need an Arkansas stone to sharpen, But I really like them for some things.
If I didn't have so many already, I'd be tempted by the 8X3 translucent at thebestthings.com. The last time I looked, it was about $60.
 
Smaller knives I usually sharpen on the DMT stone, and then go to a leather belt on a belt grinder to power-strop the edge. Larger knives I use a worn-out 800 grit belt on the grinder then go to the leather belt.

It seems like I really don't need one of those arkansas stones. I was never intending to spend $120 (or even a quarter of that) on a first quality stone. I was considering going for a second in the $20 range. Probably isn't worth it, and the quality might be questionable.

Yvsa, what's the "grit" on those ceramic stones? Although, it seems like "grit" is not really an accurate descriptor anyways.

I've noticed that some people (like Tai Goo) have been using paper strops (made of a sheet of paper wrapped around a block of wood) to get an ultra-fine edge. Would there be any advantage to using paper instead of something like leather? I guess the paper would have less give, maybe produce less of a convex-ing effect.
 
Paper and plain leather do little in terms of polishing the edge as the abrasives they contain are very mild, especially for modern very high alloy steels, they also tend to promote the formation of burrs. You can get very fine SiC / Diamond / CrO micro-loaded papers which give high quality mirror finishes.

-Cliff
 
Most hardware stores sell diamond dusted paper, DMT sells diamond micro-abrasives, Lee Valley sells a selection of micro-abrasives as well.

-Cliff
 
I don't use the strop plain, I like white rouge on leather but now I've been trying the jewlers' red rouge on paper for final stropping.

What about diamond lapping compound on a piece of paper/wood/leather? I think they sell that in grades down to 1/2 or 1/4 micron. It seems like that would work as well as diamond-dusted paper. Don't know if it would be cost-effective though.
 
Jebadiah_Smith said:
No prices listed, not a good sign.
Click to expand...

Maybe they are just a manufacturer, or only deal with industrial customers, so they don't list prices.

I saw that many industrial supply companies carry 3M diamond hand pads. Although, those pads only go up to 1800 grit or 10 micron. You can buy SiC automotive paper at higher grits than that in any auto parts store. So I don't think the pads would be worth it.
 
The red rouge is just rust, it is meant for polishing brass and other soft materials, you want CrO which is green for polishing steel.

-Cliff
 
I read somewhere that chromium oxide is 1/2 micron, the finest paper I have seen is only 1/2 micron, I'll stick to my CrO strop rather than buy the paper. I have seen 1/10 micron diamond lapping compound. What grits are Herb's yellowstone and pink no-scratch?
 
Where were the Spyderco ceramic stones found for $10? They are listed around $50 at most of the spots I've found.

I was looking for a similar stone, bought a Norton Oil stone, as I have no experience with the water stones. I want to be able to sharpen plane and chidel edges.
 
You can get a Dan's 6X2 hard select for about $31. If you want a better edge from an Arkansas stone, you will need to spend a bit more to get a black hard or a translucent.
Arkansas stones are not cheap. As Stamp pointed out, you can get cheaper fine edges on wide blades from abrasive papers. Personally, I prefer Arkansas stones or water stones.
You can also pay much less for a water stone and get a great edge. I just don't like having to flatten them. You can get a 4000 grit King stone for relatively little, and it will put a fine edge on a plane blade. A 6000 grit waterstone will do even better.
But - I have read that the ceramic stones are not always perfectly flat, and this is important for sharpening plane irons or chisels. If I were getting one for woodworking, I'd want to check it with a straight edge.
A clear advantage of the Arkansas stones for narrow blades is that they are hard and won't be gouged by the blade. The Arkansas stones are also superior for honing carving tools and curved blades. Good ones are worth what they cost. I'd recommend getting a hard select (Dans) and a black hard (Dans or Norton), or a translucent (Norton). You can use the hard select before the black hard to speed up the honing. They will last forever, and you don't need to deal with getting a flat surface for abrasive paper, or with flattening waterstones.
If money is an issue, I'd get the hard select, and follow it with a good strop. If this didn't do what I wanted (like on a block plane iron for maple endgrain), I'd follow up later with a more expensive stone.
Quality tools are forever. Cheap tools don't get used and are more expensive.
 
i've got a set of three arkansas stones that i bought individually off of a person on ebay (medium, hard, and black). i have nothing to compare them to, but i seriously think they're the best sharpening instrument i've ever used. eventually i hope to get larger, higher quality stones but for now these are perfect for me.
 
Khukuri Monster said:
Yvsa, what's the "grit" on those ceramic stones? Although, it seems like "grit" is not really an accurate descriptor anyways.
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KM, I don't have a clue except they are fiiiiiiinnnneeeee, and the Ultrafine is fiiiiiiiinnneeerrrr than that.:rolleyes: ;)

For planer blades they may not work as well because indeed they aren't prefectly flat.

The reason I got 'e, for 10 bux was because they were on sale or in a close out. Ever now and then I hit it lucky.

But I really, really, am very, very, fond of them.:D Much more fond of them than I am my hard Arkansas stones.:p I like not using water or oil on my whetstones, a lot!!!! :D
 
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