Trying to understand why, so let's discuss it

[dandan]

Knives have moved with the times. We are not our grandparents , who had different uses for knives/tools. We can now get all sorts of knives , old or new looking.
Steels have also changed.
Look how many of us wear a watch. No all of us dive to 200 Mtrs , but the watch can.
We use knives /tools that far exceed our basic use and need ( for the average Joe).

Check out your car , clothes, .
These are made to exceed our needs. We still use and wear them.
Its what we got , a change of the times.
I have many knives , and treasure them all.
We are so much better off with our toys than gramps ever was !!

 

[Pomsbz]

I'll summarize my thoughts, modern knives are functionally superior to traditional knives in every way.

Can I play devils advocate sir?

Addressing only the 'functional' aspect you bring up, there is a case to be made that having multiple blades provides more function, significantly smaller blades are better suited to many specifically urban EDC tasks, the thinner blades and grinds are better cutters/slicers and the significant size advantage is functionally superior from a carry perspective. Not to ignore the aspect that they can be carried in restrictive jurisdictions (too many countries to even list, practically the entire continent of Europe for a start) which provides considerable function over not being able to carry them at all.

I'd argue that overall it is a matter of choice rather than superiority due to how many arguments can be made for either side. The choice has become what it has regardless of any true utilitarian argument of superiority but instead due to cultural and societal shifts.

 

[marchone]

Some things were perfected a long time ago.

 

[JPD1998]

I know many tradesmen, they're carpenters, roofers, plumbers, etc.
They're not knife guys , but they all carry modern knives clipped to their pockets , and there's a reason they do.

Yesterday I was doing some yard work, my left hand was holding an electric poll saw and I needed to cut a nylon tie.
If I had a slipjoint in my pocket, I would have put everything down to open the knife. Or juggle everything and probably drop something....
But I had a one hander clipped to my pocket and it was a better tool for the work I was doing.

Doesn't mean I don't like slipjoints, the new fangled design was just better.
And I won't even mention M390 steel (a gift from the steel gods).

 

[craytab]

I still think this was a great concept for a discussion here.

Sure. The problem is the intent of these threads is often a thinly veiled condemnation of one style or the other. The OP has a history of looking down his nose at modern things and creating a persona of an old timey guy here in GKD rather than just enjoying his knives. His lack of understanding is a choice. All the things being mentioned here have been explained many times.

I have a few traditionals that I really enjoy. I use a SAK every day multiple times. However, I mostly lust after and accumulate modern knives. I post mostly in areas of the forum related to modern knives. What I don't do is go over to traditionals and constantly post about how great my modern knives are and start threads questioning why people even like traditional knives. I understand why people collect and use traditionals. It isn't that complicated to understand even if it is not my thing.

Can I play devils advocate sir?

Addressing only the 'functional' aspect you bring up, there is a case to be made that having multiple blades provides more function, significantly smaller blades are better suited to many specifically urban EDC tasks, the thinner blades and grinds are better cutters/slicers and the significant size advantage is functionally superior from a carry perspective. Not to ignore the aspect that they can be carried in restrictive jurisdictions (too many countries to even list, practically the entire continent of Europe for a start) which provides considerable function over not being able to carry them at all.

I'd argue that overall it is a matter of choice rather than superiority due to how many arguments can be made for either side. The choice has become what it has regardless of any true utilitarian argument of superiority but instead due to cultural and societal shifts.

And I'll counter. The thing is, you can get all those qualities you listed for traditional knives, in a modern knife, with the advantages of a modern knife. The multi-blade option being an exception that is mitigated by steels that will hold an edge longer than all the blades of 1095 on a common traditional multi-blade folder, combined. Non-locking can be difficult to find in the multitude of flavors modern knives often come in, but forgive me if I am not so sympathetic to living in a place with such draconian laws. We just celebrated July 4th and freedom is great

But I do understand your point and am very appreciative that there are so many options out there to satisfy anyone and everyone's needs and or wants.

 

[22-rimfire]

I know many tradesmen, they're carpenters, roofers, plumbers, etc.
They're not knife guys , but they all carry modern knives clipped to their pockets , and there's a reason they do.

Yesterday I was doing some yard work, my left hand was holding an electric poll saw and I needed to cut a nylon tie.
If I had a slipjoint in my pocket, I would have put everything down to open the knife. Or juggle everything and probably drop something....
But I had a one hander clipped to my pocket and it was a better tool for the work I was doing.

Doesn't mean I don't like slipjoints, the new fangled design was just better.
And I won't even mention M390 steel (a gift from the steel gods).

For me, in most cases it doesn't matter in the least that I can open a knife one handed unless it is a possible life and death situation. This is why I often carry a Vic One-Handed Trekker in the woods.... I have a pretty good saw and a larger blade for cutting things that I would naturally apply more force in the cutting in that environment. Larger blades win here (but not too large where you don't want to carry it). Life & death situation is mostly an extreme exaggeration for the norm, but the possibility exists and it's potential is higher than if I'm home doing normal day to day things and if there is a real crisis, I can call 911.

craytab Asserting ones view more so than condemnation I think. I have nothing to pick at with Hickory n steel . We all (or most of us) make the occasional slip in writing or speech. When Hickory first joined here and was quite active in posting his view, he certainly was stubborn about accepting anyone else's view on many things. That's okay to me.... no big thing. A common one for him is "buy American" which I support with tools; but I see no problem buying a Chinese made set of tools that you seldom use anyway. The most recent example that I am aware of was in his thread in gadgets and I mentioned I bought some T type allen wrenches from Amazon. He responded with only buying the US version. How often will I use these... once a month at the most..... chinese works for me. The buy American thing with slip joints is a Hickory thing, but he will not buy a GEC made slip joint knife because they are more expensive than either Buck or Case. I think they are better myself.

 

[22-rimfire]

Older style of knife can be fine:

I also had two "modern" folders too though, because knife, that's why!

I like you... you're comfortable in your own skin! Slip joints? Oh my gawd..... They do cut pretty well and if I didn't carry a SAK most of the time, it would be a normal slip joint. They are a thing of beauty if made well (if you like them of course!). Good to see you're paying attention to covid-19.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Can I play devils advocate sir?

Addressing only the 'functional' aspect you bring up, there is a case to be made that having multiple blades provides more function, significantly smaller blades are better suited to many specifically urban EDC tasks, the thinner blades and grinds are better cutters/slicers and the significant size advantage is functionally superior from a carry perspective. Not to ignore the aspect that they can be carried in restrictive jurisdictions (too many countries to even list, practically the entire continent of Europe for a start) which provides considerable function over not being able to carry them at all.

I'd argue that overall it is a matter of choice rather than superiority due to how many arguments can be made for either side. The choice has become what it has regardless of any true utilitarian argument of superiority but instead due to cultural and societal shifts.

It's a fair point. One thing I liked about a multi-bladed knife was sharpening the blades differently. Maybe leaving one at a low grit and polishing the other. That said, when using and carrying my Spyderco Dragonfly 2, I in no way miss additional blades. It is a thin, wicked slicer, with very amicable steel.

But again, I'm not disparaging a love for traditional knives in any way. I was merely trying to address the original question of why modern knives came to be what they are and it goes way beyond just marketing.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

It seems to me that the average suburbanite may have a lot more boxes to open in a week but overall not face any materials that are any tougher to cut than say 50-60 years ago, so I'm try to understand why the modern folder is so accepted as the idea of what a pocket knife should be when it's typically larger in every dimension than your typical traditional slipjoint.
Google " pocket knife " and the top results will be modern types.
I understand the clips and studs, those are absolutely convenient but the overall form factor and idea that strength is important is what confuses me.
I know what it's like when you pick up a knife and it feels so great in hand, but I also know what it's like to use an extra small peanut class knife and not even think about how it feels in hand when I'm using it.

I'd love to hear some thoughts and opinions on why modern knives are what they are.

I have already made an inquiry in the Buck section as to some early literature and such on the Buck 110 to truly understand this knife which inadvertently paved the way ( I have two, but never really thought too deeply about why I accepted the size without question ), here I'm just trying to understand why even the little ones are larger in most dimensions than an equivalent traditional.

Heres my assessment so far.

First half of the 1900's, balisongs were the main folders carried for the " cool " factor.
Then in 1964 the Buck 110 takes the world by storm and becomes one of the most copied specific folding knives ever.

In the 80's spyderco, first blood, and mall ninjas

1990's tactical folders became a thing

Now most folding knives in the US are modern.

I understand that people like modern folders and I understand what people like about them, but theres still a question in my mind.

The materials an average person cuts during the day haven't changed much, but people's expectations of a pocket knife mostly have and I wonder why.

So is the answer really just that people think they're cool and have gotten used to them ?

Did a lot more people carry belt knives until knives started to become " frowned upon " ?

I'm starting to realize that since I'm not into modern folders, I just can't really talk about them without sounding negative.
I have my opinions and don't plan to ever go back to modern folders, and I suppose that right there probably doomed this thread from the start.

I was trying to understand why / how our society let modern folders become what a pocket knife generally is now, but I guess whoever said I should just forget about it and go bskc to enjoying my traditional knives was right and that's what I'll do.

You mean why do some people think new is automatically better when old still gets the job done as well as anything
I'm not trying to make any kind of statement with my traditional knives at all, just like I assume you're not trying to make some kind of statement with your " better " one handed folder.
My small traditional knives are merely as much as I need in a pocket knife.
I simply do not value the same things in a knife that you do, all the benefits you list are not things I'm concerned with at all.
Don't need much grip, my little knives don't break , don't fold on me, and my carbon steel doesn't rust on me.


Btw just because someone appreciates some modern technology or some old school technology does not mean they have to be 100% one way or the other.
I like the HD flat screen TV but I cannot stand smart TVs.
,Love led flashlights but hate having various modes, there are many areas where some modern technology Is fine but I have a limit to what I'll accept.

I find that when I ask a question like this and then dismiss or argue with the answers I receive most of them time I wasn't actually looking for information, but instead affirmation. Preferring traditional knives is completely fine. The majority of us could go through life without a pocket knife at all and mostly just experience minor inconvenience, so we're almost all here because we enjoy knives and, as long as you're not harming anyone, I don't think there's a wrong way to do that.

Enjoy the knives that you enjoy, don't worry so much about what everyone else carries or enjoys.

 

[JPD1998]

For me, in most cases it doesn't matter in the least that I can open a knife one handed unless it is a possible life and death situation. This is why I often carry a Vic One-Handed Trekker in the woods.... I have a pretty good saw and a larger blade for cutting things that I would naturally apply more force in the cutting in that environment. Larger blades win here (but not too large where you don't want to carry it). Life & death situation is mostly an extreme exaggeration for the norm, but the possibility exists and it's potential is higher than if I'm home doing normal day to day things and if there is a real crisis, I can call 911.

But you said..... you most often carry a one handed opening SAK.
Which is an evolution of a product, that's what I thought we were talking about.

 

[jaseman]

I know many tradesmen, they're carpenters, roofers, plumbers, etc.
They're not knife guys , but they all carry modern knives clipped to their pockets , and there's a reason they do.

Yesterday I was doing some yard work, my left hand was holding an electric poll saw and I needed to cut a nylon tie.
If I had a slipjoint in my pocket, I would have put everything down to open the knife. Or juggle everything and probably drop something....
But I had a one hander clipped to my pocket and it was a better tool for the work I was doing.

Doesn't mean I don't like slipjoints, the new fangled design was just better.
And I won't even mention M390 steel (a gift from the steel gods).

I think this answers up the OP’s original question perfectly. This is why the ‘modern’ folder has become the defacto knife design (at least for the moment). Most people who carry them don’t collect, covet, or worship them - it’s a tool first and foremost. You’ll also find that, most knives clipped into the tradesman’s or suburbanite’s pocket, are NOT super tactical, overbuilt, or have some crazy design features. They’re basic, working designs like the Griptilian, Blur, or Delica. All vastly different designs, but with some important similarities: useful blade size and shape, comfortable handhold, one hand opening/closing, and ease of access.

It’s also interesting to note that the utility/razor knife is moving in this same direction.

 

[22-rimfire]

But you said..... you most often carry a one handed opening SAK.
Which is an evolution of a product, that's what I thought we were talking about.

The one hander (Trekker) is too fat to carry as an edc for me and it only gets carried in the woods. Otherwise, it is a regular sak. I do at times carry a potential one hand opening modern knife as an edc or as a second knife. But I seldom open them one handed unless that is the only practical way to open them like a flipper. I have no issue with one handers. None at all.

 

[Pomsbz]

I know many tradesmen, they're carpenters, roofers, plumbers, etc.
They're not knife guys , but they all carry modern knives clipped to their pockets , and there's a reason they do.

Yesterday I was doing some yard work, my left hand was holding an electric poll saw and I needed to cut a nylon tie.
If I had a slipjoint in my pocket, I would have put everything down to open the knife. Or juggle everything and probably drop something....
But I had a one hander clipped to my pocket and it was a better tool for the work I was doing.

Doesn't mean I don't like slipjoints, the new fangled design was just better.
And I won't even mention M390 steel (a gift from the steel gods).

I fully agree with you that as a work tool a modern knife is vastly superior. Hand filling, incredible steel, blade styles made for tough hard work, etc, etc. It's possible that the question could be whether the EDC needs of the regular urbanite require the compromises of modern knives (size, weight, price, etc) on the off chance that they might need it for a task which requires much much more. The market has chosen 'aye' on the question by choosing knives which have far more capability than the majority of their usage requires. Not my personal choice, I'm always going in the other direction. My Leatherman became a SAK and a Knipex for example.

 

[22-rimfire]

And we might be back to suggesting that a Rough Ryder is enough knife for most people or lord forbid... a Vic Classic.

 

[Pomsbz]

And we might be back to suggesting that a Rough Ryder is enough knife for most people or lord forbid... a Vic Classic.

I know it's not a popular thing to say but the majority of urbanites go through life with nothing more and most with less.

 

[22-rimfire]

A Leatherman Micra or Raptor might be all the knife they need. Scissors seems to be the tool of choice for most urbanites. Raptor only has a scissors.

 

[comis]

To some extent, I can see where OP is coming from, and yes, way back when knives are daily essential tools that everyone needs, they probably had used their tools harder or more often than we modern dwellers would have ever needed. But that doesn't mean whatever popular decades/hundred years ago was the 'best' for the job, it merely meant those tools have sufficed.

The fact that Victorinox SAK is still the most popular knives purchased nowadays should reveal that those 'traditional' design are every bit as relevant as it was yesterday, but it have just evolved and transformed to something better. Imagine you get on your DeLorean, and ask a farm hand to trade you his knife with a modern SAK 150 years back--What? No blade rub, don't rust in pocket, and it even has screwdrivers? I will probably trade in my pants if I were that farm hand.

What I am trying to get at is--we all now live in the golden era of knife hobby, the dazzling variety is a luxury our predecessors could only dream of. Does it even matter why we are where we are now?

 

[22-rimfire]

To some extent, I can see where OP is coming from, and yes, way back when knives are daily essential tools that everyone needs, they probably had used their tools harder or more often than we modern dwellers would have ever needed. But that doesn't mean whatever popular decades/hundred years ago was the 'best' for the job, it merely meant those tools have sufficed.

The fact that Victorinox SAK is still the most popular knives purchased nowadays should reveal that those 'traditional' design are every bit as relevant as it was yesterday, but it have just evolved and transformed to something better. Imagine you get on your DeLorean, and ask a farm hand to trade you his knife with a modern SAK 150 years back--What? No blade rub, don't rust in pocket, and it even has screwdrivers? I will probably trade in my pants if I were that farm hand.

What I am trying to get at is--we all now live in the golden era of knife hobby, the dazzling variety is a luxury our predecessors could only dream of. Does it even matter why we are where we are now?

A SAK would be an interesting find if time travel were possible and would prove such. Just say-in.... Finding a SAK in King Tut's tomb. Yeah.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

The whole thread seems to be based on the premise that traditional folders are adequate for most people. That's absolutely true for me; hell, a single-edge razor blade would do 99% of cutting I do with an EDC folder. But that doesn't mean that modern knives don't bring more to the table. Like many product advancements, the things that separate a modern knife from a traditional are mostly tied to convenience. A modern folder can have much thicker steel than a traditional, and will still cut as well as you need it to, but will be tougher and have much better edge retention (less sharpening) and it'll usually have a clip.

Convenience is a huge driver of innovation. I'd say the vast majority of people today use cartridge or disposable razors to shave, rather than straight razors or double-edge safety razors. The relative pros and cons of both are subject of endless debate, but it's indisputable that it's easier to pick up the latest Gillette product and get a good shave than it is to learn to use a straight razor. There are still people who invest the time and money in the old way, but they're the minority.

 

[22-rimfire]

All I can say is "Try it and you might like it." That goes for both modern and slip joints.

As far as shaving goes.... seems to be the fad today to be unshaven or look like you have a few day's growth. Gillette is struggling according to what I read.