Two weapon style fighting info

E

Elwin

Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Messages
183
Are there any texts out there that give basic intruction in the use of two weapons at the same time? I know Musashi supported using both katana and wakizashi at the same time, saying it is a shame for a man to die w/ one weapon still in its sheath. Sword and dirk seem fairly popular as well. How about 2 full sized swords? Seems tricky, but so does tying your shoes until you learn how. Just curious.
 
Hi Elwin,

Apart from sword and dagger/buckler/shield/targe most masters say that dual wielding is more trouble than it is worth. Having played a little, I would agree with them. Shorter weapons like machete's are manageable however there are still good reasons not to dual wield especially when you can have a buckler or targe instead of another weapon.
Cheers
Stu.
 
I've heard the Western version of fighting with 2 short swords called "Florentine". Does anyone know if there is in fact any connection with a fighting school in Florence for this style?
As far as it being more trouble than it's worth, Escrima seems pretty nasty with just sticks; couldn't this style be just as, if not more effective with bladed weapons? (I'm talkin pure theory here)
 
Hoplophile,
Yes, fighting with a sword in each hand is indeed called "Florentine" but I have not found any substantive evidence that would lead me to believe that "two swords" was a favored technique in Florence or even Italy for that matter.

As to Escrima, it's noteworthy that one of the predominant styles within "Escrima" (FMA) is known as Espada y Daga. (Spanish for "Sword and Dagger")

There are some very direct and very interesting cross overs between Classic Rapier and Dagger and FMA stick work.
 
Hey All,

I was under the impression that "Florentine" was an SCA invention. There is a two page thread on this over at SFI.

Using a 24 inch machete or stick in each hand is a very different proposition from two sideswords or rapiers. A sidesword is going to be three feet long and a rapier about four feet long.

We do have musuem pieces that are two sideswords in a scabbard together designed to be used in a pair but there aren't many of them. The masters called this a "Case of Rapiers".

Hey Ken, what similarities do you see between espada y daga and Spanish rapier? I don't see many at all. The spanish rapier is a long thin thrusting weapon. A bolo is a short cut oriented working blade. Having seen destreza in action and having practiced a form of Spano-Italian rapier for a while now, I am unable to see any similarities with Filipino sword and dagger. You can't close fencing lines or properly oppose a blade with a bolo and the closure of fencing lines and subtle opposition thrusts are the primary techniques in rapier play. This one has always puzzled me.
Cheers
Stu.
 
Stuart,
Don't get bogged down with weapons styles, I'm talking about technique.

I had a very interesting day with an Espada y Daga Instructor once. We got to talking and eventually, I provided him with a loaner Rapier and Gauche.

Without ever having used a rapier before, he was instantly very good. He displayed an understanding of weapon manipulation that you wouldn't expect to find in any but an accomplished Rapier Duelist.

He also lost.
:D

His loss though, was not because of any lack in technical proficiency, but rather in an inability to adjust to the difference in distances. He thought he was "safe" and "outside" and I lit him up! :D (Nasty way to learn.)

When I talk about similarities, I'm talking about technique. Blocks, parries, thrusts...

There are only so many ways to work a blade or blades and there will always be cross-overs. This is why each successive Martial Art you study is easier to pick up than the last one. A hammer fist is still a hammer fist regardless of whether it's Tae Kwon Do or Go Jo Ryu and a parry and thrust is still a parry and thrust whether it's an Escrima Stick or a Rapier.
 
BTW...
Stu, you may be right about "Florentine" being an SCA term. As I said, I've looked for origins of the term and found nothing. I don't normally read SCA material though. So if it's there, I'd have missed it.
 
I recall hearing/reading that Irish geurilla fighters opposing the Norse used 2 short swords or a short sword/shorthandled war axe combo.
 
Hopolophile,

Eskrima just means fencing. Stick training really is just beginner blade training. In the FMA, the idea is to train warriors FAST because there always was internal warfare, Spanish in vaders, and then Americans to fight. So, they train weapons first and then progress to empty hands, generally speaking. It is dangerous to give a beginner a kris and start their training (I would haev cut my head and knees too many tiems to count now!) so you start with sticks (which are good weapons in themselves) and then stick blades in their hands.
 
Lets put things this way, there is alota hype that spreads around FMA schools that just are not based on real research. If one does a look at Philippine history, there are more signs that escrima/arnis was introduced to the Philippines by the Spanish. In their various campaigns in the region the Spanish relied heavily on native troops, and often trained native corsairs to do raiding on enemy forces. It is not un-reasonable to assume that these Spanish trained natives would not retain some of their learned training, and modify to suit their environment. So what we see as modern escrima could very much in fact be modified Spanish fighting arts. In other Spanish colonies similar fighting styles have been found, with many similarities. On the other hand, other regional martial arts, such as silat and kuntao bear more differences than similarities. Anyways, old school escrima, such as practiced by my great grandfather was practiced with bolo, and not stick, and was meant to be a sword art. Here's a good link to a couple of essays dealing with the origins of escrima/arnis http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html
 
elwin:

Don't know if there are any texts on it, but certain Okinawan schools of Martial arts do use two weapons. My Goshin Jutsu training led me to Sai, which are basically two parrying/striking weapons, very similar in design and shape to the Main Gauche, also used for sword parrying. Other paired Okinawan weapons styles are Kama (short sickle type scythes), and Tonfa. There are Katas (forms) designed for each of these styles (they have their similarities) so you can get a feel for the flow of two-weapon fighting.

Also, there are a lot of antique and ancient paired jian (or gim), a chinese straight sword, similar to european short swords. They actually have some pairs that are both stored in the same sheath, suggesting that the user might manipulate both at the same time. In a culture that did not make wide use of the shield, you might as well fight with a weapon in each hand.

In europe, where the shield saw use as a defense, it seems that the shield + weapon combo previaled over two weapon. It's too hard to stop a spear, arrow, etc with jsut two blades, blades that may not have been designed for blocking in the first place. In many cases, small shields like bucklers, targes, or viking center-boss round shields, were employed actively, almost as a weapon. Some had spikes for a punching attack. Also, smaller shield can be used to pin or negate an attack before it starts.

my two pence.
Keith
 
Good info. I just thought that two weapon fighting was quite popular in books and movies, but wondered if it was used historically. I should have been more specific. I was mainly referring to two full size swords, which doesnt seem to popular. Shorter weapons seem to be used this way more often, since they are easier to control and dont get tangled w/ each other. Any more info?
 
Two weapon combos_

Axe+ Sword is kinda fun to try. The axe has certain "trap and clear" applications, and it is a mass weapon that is a good crushing blow weapon. Takes a lot of forearm and shoulder strength, tho.

Certain vikings were mentined in Sagas as fighting with axe and sword, or knife and sword, mostly Beserkergangers. Egill Skallagrimsson fought with a long sword and a shorter heavier 'falchion' type sword.

Keith
En Ferro Veritas
 
japan's greatest swordsman, miyamoto musashi, advocated using both swords at the same time. woodcuts of him practicing with a pair of wooden sticks make you think a lot about escrima.

the northern luzon (main island of the philippines) style of arnis is probably the closest you will see to having a european flavor. the basic wielding technique is 'largo mano' (long hand). weapons tend to be long (> 24") and fighting avoids close-in techniques. i was trained for a short time in largo-mano but our teacher called it 'teknik-duwag' or 'coward's technique' precisely because it avoided close-ins. i still keep two arnis weapons i made myself: a 4-foot long bamboo whip (works like a sjambok) and a thin, whippy 3 1/4-foot long walking stick cut from a guava tree (very tough wood).

arnis/kali/escrima grew out of greek/ottoman/hindu knife-sword fighting (read: muslim) and with spanish influence. get this: the spaniards found arnis so lethal they banned its practice by the general populace, so the spanish influence must have been limited indeed.

on the other hand, mestizos (half-breeds), rich filipinos, chinese merchants and even peninsular spaniards practiced both european fencing and arnis in the philippines at the time.
 
Yeah. Mushashi felt it was a great disservice to not fight with two weapons, like you were only half fighting. It certainly makes for a flurry of blades, but takes time to develop any two-weapons style. The real benefit is that if you lose a sword or sustain a crippling injury to your strong hand, your weak hand isnt all that weak anymore...

Keith
 
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