Undectable Knife Law CA AB52

CJ Buck

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Chris Michele, our lobbyist in California has brought to our attention a pending law in California. The law is AB52. It has to do with undetectable knives. We had given feedback that there needed to be some description as to what magnatometer standard this detectability would be measured at.

Here is the link to review the text on this law. Any feedback to give to chris??

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_352_bill_20020107_amended_asm.pdf

AKTI did not take a strong position on this because it seemed a reasonable stance for law enforcement.
 
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Originally posted by CJ Buck
AKTI did not take a strong position on this because it seemed a reasonable stance for law enforcement.

What about divers and boaters who need a non-magnetic knife? Or those of us who can afford ceramic, titanium, etc. knives? They are stuck leaving them at home? $200+ on a knife just to be a conversation piece! Watch out for people with disposable plastic butter knives going to lunch. Heaven forbid that an expensive ceramic or titanium steak knife be brought along for a picnic!

I just joined AKTI this MONTH! What the hell ARE MY DUES WORKING FOR? This is merely some overreaction BS from Sept 11, that would not have helped then, and will NOT help now! All it does is discredit the honest people.

Someone please tell me how I may direct my complaint so something good may come of it.
 
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I don't like the idea, but I recognize that a ceramic shank, or ceramic blade/Ti handle would be a perfect hijack weapon. I don't know if passing a law would make any real difference though. If it were on a Federal level, and imposed a nation wide ban, then maybe. MAYBE. I just see this as another potentially dropped ball. I'm glad someone noticed the potential for "undetectable knives", but as with firearms, you can't regulate what's already on the streets. Or in Williams-Sonoma, or any number of resale shops, or rummage sales, or whatever. The horse is way out of the barn.
 
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Hogwash.

From where I stand, if you can hijack a plane with a knife... then you don't need the knife.

Get real. This is just one more example of the gov't incrementally attempting to disarm the citizenry and an organization established to protect member's rights rolling over and playing dead when confronted with an issue. I'll keep my membership money and buy more knives with it.
 
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Originally posted by Les Leslie
Hogwash.

From where I stand, if you can hijack a plane with a knife... then you don't need the knife.

YYESS!!
Finally someone who understands!!!
 
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Besides questioning the need for such a law to begin with, what is the utility of exempting law enforcement or military from the prohibition? What legitimate purpose would a police officer or a GI have for one of these things that we "ordinary citizens" wouldn't?

The notion that we should be prohibited from owning any implement of our choosing for the protection or preservation of ourselves and loved ones is particularly onerous to me, especially when said prohibition does not extend to those very people charged with enforcing that law. Such action only serves to reduce the status of an ordinary person from that of "citizen" to "subject".

As stated above, there are many legitimate uses for knives that don't, necessarily, trigger a metal detector (magnetometer) and this legislation does nothing to recognize those legitimate uses. The one redeeming factor could be the requirement that the knife or instrument be "commercially manufactured to be used as a weapon" but I wouldn't want to be the test case for it.

Personally, I think the law should be dumped altogether. (But then I also believe everyone boarding an airplane should be issued a Busse Battle Mistress to be kept handy for the duration of the flight.)
 
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Mr. Buck,

Can you please enlighten me. Does this mean that there is no differents in the eyes of the law between a polymer plastic sharp object and a Zytel handled knife with a ceramic blade???

Jeff
 
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The only laws California needs are those which will curb the powers of the lawmakers and enact strict guidelines designed to eliminate their rampant stupidity.

Along with extensive background checks to eliminate those lawmakers who appear to be in cahoots with criminals, terrorists, and cops-on-the-take.

But if those laws were passed, there wouldn't be any more politics in CA, would there? :)

Karl
 
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I agree if more people understood this then wouldn't be some many laws aimed at disarming us. If some someone can hijack a plane with a bar of soap then it can be done with or without a knife and if a whole bunch of us get angry at the same time and send it to our governors, senator,congressmen ect. via mail, phone and email maybe then our leaders :barf: will get the message that we dont want any more pointless laws.


From where I stand, if you can hijack a plane with a knife... then you don't need a knife


where theres a will theres a way
Manwe
 

CJ Buck

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Here is the actual text of the law...and I mistyped the number in my original message CA AB352

First let me say that this was not in response to 9/11. This had been rolling around the senate for years. I remember seeing it when we were fighting the dirk and dagger stuff in mid-ninties.

Airports, courtrooms and schools all over this nation, not to mention the capital building itself, believe magnatometers give a degree of safety (and whether that is true is less important than that it is believed to be true) and that if certain products reduce that safety, they must be regulated.

The senate did not make any amendments to the bill (they always disagree with assembly). Law enforcement was totally behind the bill. The perception in Sacramento is that if you go against law enforcement you are soft on crime.

We are very careful how we spend our limited resources and this battle, for all the reasons stated above, was deemed not a prudent one.

California 2001-02 Regular Session
2001 CA AB 352
Chaptered
06/21/2002
Runner
CHAPTER 58
FILED WITH SECRETARY OF STATE JUNE 21, 2002
APPROVED BY GOVERNOR JUNE 20, 2002
PASSED THE SENATE JUNE 10, 2002
PASSED THE ASSEMBLY JANUARY 22, 2002
AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY JANUARY 7, 2002
AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY MARCH 27, 2001

INTRODUCED BY Assembly Member Runner
(Principal coauthor: Assembly Member La Suer)

FEBRUARY 16, 2001
An act to amend Section 12001.1 of the Penal Code, relating to
undetectable knives.
LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST

AB 352, Runner. Undetectable knives.

Existing law provides that any person who commercially manufactures or causes to be commercially manufactured, knowingly imports into the state for commercial sale, keeps for commercial sale, or offers or exposes for commercial sale, any undetectable knife is guilty of a misdemeanor. Existing law also defines an "undetectable knife" to mean any knife or other instrument that, among other criteria, is not detectable by a metal detectorset at standard calibration.

This bill would revise the definition of "undetectable knife" to include any knife or other instrument that, among other criteria, is not detectable by a metal detector or magnetometer, as specified.

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:

SECTION 1. Section 12001.1 of the Penal Code is amended to read:

12001.1. (a) Any person in this state who commercially manufactures or causes to be commercially manufactured, or who knowingly imports into the state for commercial sale, keeps for commercial sale, or offers or exposes for commercial sale, any undetectable knife is guilty of a misdemeanor. As used in this section, an "undetectable knife" means any knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a
stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death that is
commercially manufactured to be used as a weapon and is not detectable by a metal detector or magnetometer, either handheld or otherwise, that is set at standard calibration.

(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, commencing January 1, 2000, all knives or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death that are commercially manufactured in this state that utilize materials that are not detectable by a metal detector or magnetometer, shall be manufactured to include materials that will ensure they are detectable by a metal detector or magnetometer, either handheld or otherwise, that is set
at standard calibration.

(c) This section shall not apply to the manufacture or importation of undetectable knives for sale to a law enforcement or military entity nor shall this section apply to the subsequent sale of these knives to a law enforcement or military entity.

(d) This section shall not apply to the manufacture or importation of undetectable knives for sale to federal, state, and local historical societies, museums, and institutional collections which are open to the public, provided that the undetectable knives are properly housed and secured from unauthorized handling, nor shall this section apply to the subsequent sale of the knives to these societies, museums, and collections.
 
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I just have a few questions that I'm hoping you (CJ Buck or anyone else)can answer the questions are as follows: the AKTI how effective are they in lobbying, how many members do they now have and what does the number that sometimes appears at the bottom of some post (i.e. AKTI #PR00003)

I know that A. G. Russell recommends the institute but I never realy knew enough about AKTI to join. Hopefully that all changes with this post;).
 
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I'm not familiar with the physics of metal detectors or magnetometers, but does this bill just cover non-metallic knives, or might it have an effect on Ti or Talonite blades?
 

Melvin-Purvis

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..paint all the 'bad' knives black, and then ban them! :rolleyes:

Dennis, agreed! Excellent post btw!

medusaoblongata, much like the inedible fish that often gets caught in the 'long-line' gill nets...so would Ti knives and such under this revised law... Only these 'fish' wouldn't get thrown back, and their owners could end up in court, or worse! :grumpy:

Someday they'll want me to register my knives too...and I won't ;)

Mel

"Bad knife, bad, bad knife! Now, go stand in the corner with your blade edge facing the wall! Bad knife!"
 
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Thanks, C.J., for the heads up and update on the new law.

Thanks Melvin. I agree, no knife registration for me either. (We either hang together or we'll all hang seperately)

Safety Guy, what makes you think stupid weapons laws are exclusive to CA and why would only CA politicians be affected by your formula? Check out some of the other states. You'll see we don't have a lock on that particular brand of insanity out here. In fact, thanks to the efforts of Buck Knives (& later, AKTI) we have actually seen a certain amount of common sense infecting some of the legislation (concerning knives, anyway) passed out here in recent years, (current subject not withstanding).

Jeff, you're right....if it won't trigger the MD, there's no difference. However, most units these days are set so sensitive that they will alert on the metal pocket clip or even the pivot screw.

Manwe, AKTI has had some success out here in CA and, for the most part, is a benefit to the general knife owning public. However, it is more of an industry organization than a grass roots movement. It more resembles SAAMI or NSSF than the NRA. Membership is open to everyone but the power members and decision makers are the industry leaders and manufacturors. At present, their resources are limited so they have to pick and choose their battles. Obviously, they aren't going to waste precious capital on losing causes or futile gestures. Overall, their efforts serve to improve life for all of us because what benefits the industry, usually, benefits us. As long as you remember that their primary focus is the survival and prosperity of the knifemaking industry in general, I think you'll find them to be a worthwhile group to support. (No, I'm not a member but I do support them.)

Jason, coins, keys and brass belt buckles will set off a metal detector at the airport and these materials are non-magnetic. I've also seen metal detectors used by treasure hunters and beach scroungers alert on aluminum pop tops and soda cans buried in the sand at beaches.

A magnetometer, basically, just detects a distortion or disturbance in a magnetic field that it either establishes itself or is set up by something else. Virtually any metal, ferrous or otherwise, that is electrically conductive, will disturb that field when it passes through it. All the MD has to do is sense the change and sound an alarm.

That leads me to believe that titanium or any of the tungsten/chromium/cobalt alloys such as Talonite, Stellite or Dendredic Cobalt may, indeed, be responsive to the metal detection equipment in use today, which, BTW are, at the moment, ALL based on magnetometer technology.

Now! To save all of you eggheads, engineers, technicians, scientists and wiz-kids out there some huntin' & peckin' time, I know thats an over-simplified description of magnetometer operation. It's supposed to be. I'm not trying to teach a class on the things, just give a general idea of what they do and, possibly, set some minds at ease or...maybe save someone some embarrassment,(or worse), from thinking they can slip a Ti or Talonite blade past a SCP somewhere. What I'm saying is, don't waste your time picking nits over any details I may have glossed over......I don't care. OK? :) Besides, it's been over 35 years since I've worked with the things. I'm sure there've been some advances since then.
 
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Dennis, I didn't mean to appear to pick on California. I was simply addressing the subject of this thread. I know very well that other states, municipalities, countries, etc. have politicians just as bad or worse than California.

In Ohio, ours are worse. My SOP here is to always vote against the Republicans (led by Tyrant Taft) because they are (functionally) the ones who have opposed concealed carry for years. It's all I seem to be able to do, since they won't listen to me at hearings.

I always vote third party, unless the person fully supports CCW.

Karl
 
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No problem SG. It's just a kind of reflex from hearing it so often, usually from folks who have never lived here. Besides, you're not wrong. It just isn't exclusive to us. The "glass house & stones" caution applies across the whole country.

Nothing personal.
 

CJ Buck

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Manwe, AKTI has about 1200 members. The lion's share of the funding we raise comes out of our businesses. The PR# after my name is that i am a Premier Member (no holy robes came with that title) and I am on the board. My number is 3 behind Les DeAsis of Benchmade and Jim Wehr, Formerly with Gerber.

Buck, Benchmade, Gerber, Schrade are premier manufacturer board members. Bob Miller, a distributor here in california, the knife makers guild and AG Russell round out the board. Premier members each pony up $10k per year. The guild doesn't but we need their input from the trend setting custom side.

We also have numerous advisory board members that have stepped up in a lesser manner financially but have committed personal time to meetins and committee discussions. Kershaw, Camillius, Moteng(distributor), Progressive Team(Taiwan mfg), SOG, United Cutlery and NICA(an association of independent cutlery dealers). Each has ponied up $2k-5k.

Our whole annual budget is about $150k.

We are also acting as a collection point for collecting funds to assist a group in florida working the re-legalize automatic knives.

Each regent covers their own expenses for board meetings and testimony etc...

My learning experience in california said I had more credibility as a representative of industry than a businessman just trying to protect his business in a congressional testimony situation. That was the basis for starting AKTI.

I feel like I am rambling here. I am out of the office for the next week. I will get back on the week of July 8th if you have any other questions on AKTI.
 
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Dennis, thanks for clearing up the magnetometer thing for me.

On principle, I'm against virtually all anti-weapon legislation, but the following (which does not justify this stupid bill) might be of interest:

FWIW, this bill makes it illegal to commercially manufacture or commercially sell undetectable knives. It is still legal to buy, own, and carry them. And since it's only commercial manufacture and sale that are mentioned, that leads me to believe that manufacture for private sale would be legal, though I don't know what the exact legal difference between commercial and non-commercial sale or manufacture is, someone to whom it makes a difference can do the homework on it.

"Any person in this state who commercially manufactures or causes to be commercially manufactured, or who knowingly imports into the state for commercial sale, keeps for commercial sale, or offers or exposes for commercial sale, any undetectable knife is guilty of a misdemeanor."
 
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Jason, for the most part, any activity done as a business is commercial activity. Therefore, if anyone is selling something as part of their business activity, it's a commercial sale. If something is procured or made to be sold (as opposed to being procured or made for one's own private use), it is usually regarded as business activity and therefore would be considered for commercial sale. It may not be illegal for you to buy one of those things under those circumstances but it would be illegal for someone to sell it to you. The commercial seller would be liable but not the buyer.

If, OTOH, you had one of them laying around your house and decided that you wanted to sell it just to get rid of it or if a friend sees it and talks you into selling it to him as a favor, the argument could be made that it wasn't a commercial sale but a private sale, since you weren't in the business of selling things and it was a one time deal. In that case, it would probably not be covered under the law.

An example would be if someone buys a table at a gunshow for one show to get rid of some old reloading equipment and other miscellaneous items he had laying around, possibly including on of these knives, that could be considered a private sale. (Although he would probably be better off having a garage sale since the gunshow, itself, is a commercial activity and therefore any sales at the show could be considered commercial sales).

If that same person is a regular vendor at every gunshow selling the same type of stuff and buying more to replenish what he sells, then that's a business and would be considered commercial activity. Therefore, even if he only got one of these types of knives and sold it there it would be a commercial sale, since the guy is in the business of buying and selling stuff, and it would be illegal.

Hope this helps.
 
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I don't see anything in the text of this law that prohibits the importation of an undetectable knife into California for non-commercial purposes. So if you really wanted a plastic knife or the law turned out to be overinclusive with respect to metal knives, you could pick one up out of state, pack it in your checked luggage or your car, and bring it home.

Some people who keep a gun or other weapon in every room of their house (not me, but I'm not passing judgment on this practice either) like to keep a hard plastic knife in the shower. If they wanted to buy one in the future, for example, they could do so out of state, in person.

Please correct me if you think I'm missing something.

Regards,

Johnny
 
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