Unimpressed with M390

I ve enjoyed using my 710 m390 (first KW offering about 2 years ago) and my Ritter grip in m390 . They seem to hold an edge reasonably well and I haven t noticed any chipping, but I haven t really used them that hard.
This is the second time in recent weeks that a high grade steel provided in a product by a respected knife company has come under unfavorable scrutiny. The Spyderco Manix 2 S110v was the subject of a recent thread questioning the durability of its steel.
The two companies I trust the most to properly heat treat their steel offerings are Benchmade and Spyderco. Do these examples suggest holes in quality control?
I hope the OP at least informs Benchmade of his concerns as I would like to hear how they handle this. This would be a good test of their customer service.
 
Jason B. said:
I purchased a Knifeworks Grip in M390 around thanksgiving. I sharpen a lot of knives every year and with that comes the experience of grinding pretty much every steel imaginable. M390 is one of those steels that many talk about and I've sharpened enough to at least have the experience to say it sharpens easily and takes a very nice edge regardless of the finished grit. So with all the glowing reports of edge retention I decided to purchase the Grip from Knifeworks.

I received the knife and being my first Grip I was excited to employ it as my new work/EDC knife. The first order of business was to give it a good edge, the factory edge was hardly more than a bump on the grinding wheel that would just begin to rip paper. I started with my 140 Atoma Plate and progressed to my Coarse DMT plate where I stopped. Typically this edge is good for high alloy steels but I quickly developed chipping and rolling in the edge. At first I placed blame on the things I cut throughout the day but after resharpening and continued rolling and chipping I knew something was wrong.

I've used different stone finishes and angles trying to resolve this problem but overall the steel feels a little on the soft side. The edge performance is hardly on par with VG-10 and my 908 in 154cm, nowhere close to S90V or 204P, even has S30V calling it names.

So, the real question is what to do now. I would like to think sending it in and getting the blade swapped out would fix the issue (if even possible) but what's not to say a whole batch of blades didn't received a botched HT? A pat on the back with a "she's fixed!" from BM might sound great but deep down I know the issue will not get properly resolved, no one digs that deep into a problem anymore.
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Very suspicious as the M390 on my 581 performs insanely well. It would be ideal if we could send a few samples of these new Ritter Grips to a maker with a Rockwell Hardness tester. On a side note this is probably the cheapest production m390, and I find myself being curious as to why. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I wish there was a more simple way to test steel composition, you never know what steel you really have. We see fakes with mislabeled steel all the time (fake Spyderco's claiming VG10 etc..). Though we assume those are always from China, and though they mostly are, we cant deny that there is a possibility that it happens in North America. **POTENTIALLY**, even with companies we so dearly love here on BF..
 
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All my M390 knives(755,710,ritter grip...),perform very well,no chipping issues either.Love the steel.
 
RevDevil said:
I don't know. I have a few M390 folders from Benchmade and the one that I have used more than any other is the TSEK. While I didn't go and do much in terms of reprofiling, resharpening, or any other extensive maintenance on it; it did hold a really nice edge for a long time and there was no chipping, rolling, flat spots, etc. I did get lucky because I got one that has symmetrical bevels and it was adequately sharp. I measured the cutting edge at approximately 40 degrees inclusive.It is disheartening to read this, I want to buy a large Ritter M390 too.
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Hopefully it is just an issue with HT of a particular batch of blades. The problem being, short of extended use and sharpening, how will a person know ?
I really need to put my Mini in pocket and start using it. If there is a problem I'll deal with it then. If not, all is well :D

I would like to think because of Doug Ritters involvement in these knives, and the market they are targeted towards, they wouldn't have switched from S30V to M390, unless they knew it was going to work well.
 
The m390 on my 586 has been excellent. Haven't had any issues with chipping and it touches up easily.
 
Jason B. said:
Been down this road before. I had a rukus I sent in a few years ago only to sell it after being disappointed with BM's service. Sold a lum tanto due to performance issues. Now I have a Grip with a premium steel not performing well, 3 for 3? I must be lucky. I plan on giving them a call but something says I will get the standard treatment, might even get a new knife, but what about the actual problem? New knife arrives and it takes another month of use to find out I have another dud?Remember that saying "fool me once shame on you"?
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A month of use? Sounds like an awesome steel to me.
 
I understand I said it chipped but it's not the main failure mode. The minor chipping I experienced only happened twice. The edge rolling and very poor edge retention are my main issues. The chipping was small, microchipping as most would call it.

On a daily basis I cut a lot of plastic, 4mm and 6mm plastic containment among other things. it's not a tough material but after a day's of cutting my Spyderco Endura or 908 in 154cm show the wear but in most cases still have a respectable edge. In this exact same usage my Grip with M390 steel takes on a rolled edge in maybe 20 minutes.

So, while I did experience chipping its the least of concerns.
 
338375 said:
I'm curious if any of the other models they make using M390 will have similar issues ?
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I have several Benchmade Gold Class knives with M390 and while not reprofiling them, I have pushed the blades pretty hard and have not had a single problem with them. I have had 1 problem with an M4 blade crumbling, but not any of the others or any M390 blades. If it were mine, I would call Benchmade direct and discuss the various problems you have had with M390 and on which knives specifically. M390 has been great blade steel for me. I like CPM-M4 and I like 10v very much.
 
I have never owned a knife in m390, and was considering a Ritter Grip. This will make me pause as I see what happens.....
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Frankly, it sounds like you've given up before you started. If it's being outperformed by VG-10 and 154CM something is very wrong and the company should certainly address it. If, however, you allow hypothetical scenarios concerning large batches of blades to prevent you from actually doing anything about it you may as well toss it in the trash.
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Heck, if he's going to do that, he can send it to me and I'll worry about the warranty replacement!

sirupatespecial said:
So then it would just be that BM doesn't know how to h/t m390?
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My 810-1401, 581, and 586 would disagree.

They have a local shop H/T their M390 blades, so it is possible this company got a batch too soft. In 2011/2012, they limited production of knives in M390 due to having some warping issues during heat treat (we couldn't get the Benchmade Forum Knife in M390 because of it). It's possible the hardness was missed on a batch.[/QUOTE]

sirupatespecial said:
Is it hard to nail the H/T?
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From what I've heard, it can be.

338375 said:
I'm curious if any of the other models they make using M390 will have similar issues ?
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Nope.

farokhsidhwa said:
Though we assume those are always from China, and though they mostly are, we cant deny that there is a possibility that it happens in North America. **POTENTIALLY**, even with companies we so dearly love here on BF..
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In general, it probably could. With Knifeworks getting Doug Ritter's knives directly from Benchmade... No chance at all.
 
It will be headed off to Benchmade by the end of the week. I was told I can ask to have it tested so I will go that route and hopefully this issue will be resolved, I would like to enjoy some good M390.
 
Jason B. said:
I understand I said it chipped but it's not the main failure mode. The minor chipping I experienced only happened twice. The edge rolling and very poor edge retention are my main issues. The chipping was small, microchipping as most would call it.

On a daily basis I cut a lot of plastic, 4mm and 6mm plastic containment among other things. it's not a tough material but after a day's of cutting my Spyderco Endura or 908 in 154cm show the wear but in most cases still have a respectable edge. In this exact same usage my Grip with M390 steel takes on a rolled edge in maybe 20 minutes.

So, while I did experience chipping its the least of concerns.
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Should have taken some pictures. If you have them, let's see what you are talking about.

Jason B. said:
It takes repeated use and sharpening to begin to understand a steel, this is not something you figure out whittling a stick.
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Hmm, not true. If a knife steel has a garbage heat treat, you can pretty much tell right off the bat. There is no need to get all into the inner layers to figure out that your edge is chipping and or rolling. Personally, I have never seen a knife both get chips and rolls at the same time. Rolling indicates the steel is a bit on the soft side, chipping indicates the opposite. The chipping can be attributed to the cutting edge angle being a bit on the acute side. Microchipping from what I have seen happens at times from the burr not being properly removed. Crazy I know.
 
RevDevil said:
Should have taken some pictures. If you have them, let's see what you are talking about.



Hmm, not true. If a knife steel has a garbage heat treat, you can pretty much tell right off the bat. There is no need to get all into the inner layers to figure out that your edge is chipping and or rolling. Personally, I have never seen a knife both get chips and rolls at the same time. Rolling indicates the steel is a bit on the soft side, chipping indicates the opposite. The chipping can be attributed to the cutting edge angle being a bit on the acute side. Microchipping from what I have seen happens at times from the burr not being properly removed. Crazy I know.
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I received it, sharpened it, cut a cardboard box totaling about 3 sq ft.
Edge rolled and needed to be sharpened. I realized from day one something was off.
Edge was sharpened and placed back in my pocket.
A few days of light use and I find a small chip in the edge and edge was beginning to dull.
Edge sharpened and ready for a new day.

That's 3 right there all having suspect performance, the edge was sharpened maybe one or two more times past that before being taken out of service. So, I'm 4-5 Sharpening's in and I have concluded that there is a issue. It takes testing to find problems.

Chipping and Rolling can happen to both Hard and Soft steels.
 
This is a good mystery. So from what I've read, you were using a x-coarse diamond finish, have sharpened maybe 5-6 times, and had issues basically from the beginning. Do you know what angle you used? (Sounds silly I know, but some people don't measure it.) Do you have any idea how far back you've sharpened from the original edge?
 
Jason B. said:
I received it, sharpened it, cut a cardboard box totaling about 3 sq ft.
Edge rolled and needed to be sharpened. I realized from day one something was off.
Edge was sharpened and placed back in my pocket.
A few days of light use and I find a small chip in the edge and edge was beginning to dull.
Edge sharpened and ready for a new day.

That's 3 right there all having suspect performance, the edge was sharpened maybe one or two more times past that before being taken out of service. So, I'm 4-5 Sharpening's in and I have concluded that there is a issue. It takes testing to find problems.

Chipping and Rolling can happen to both Hard and Soft steels.
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You made it sound in you op as if it were chipping and rolling at the same time, which might be why some are asking for pics.
I know I'd kinda like to see that.
 
me2 said:
This is a good mystery. So from what I've read, you were using a x-coarse diamond finish, have sharpened maybe 5-6 times, and had issues basically from the beginning. Do you know what angle you used? (Sounds silly I know, but some people don't measure it.) Do you have any idea how far back you've sharpened from the original edge?
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I used a Coarse diamond and de-burred with 1micron diamond on denim.

The factory angle was around 40 inclusive, I average between 34-36 inclusive with 90% of my sharpening.
 
Thanks Jason B.
This all makes for a very interesting read, for sure.
I'm sorry to hear when anyone has a bad experience, or several bad experiences with a BM knife/knives.
I myself (a huge fan) have had none of these issues with any of the M390 knives that I own and use.
Because there are very few reports of these kind of issues, so far.
It kind of makes me believe that BM's QC just missed something.
How big or small this "miss" truly is, may yet be seen.
 
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