United Boker - what is the real story

[sceva]

Since I got my little half congress I have been trying to figure out the real story on the United Boker knifes. Made by Boker or Made under license to Boker?

Probably the best info is on the Boker Book ( I highly recommend this book by Neal Punchard and Ricky Ray if you like Boker knives) which explains that after Boker USA ceases in about 1983 Boker had no one marketing Boker Knives in the US. United Boker was an agreement between the original United ( Smokey Mountain and Blue Ridge knives) and Boker to market Bokers under the United Boker name using Boker stock patterns, mostly Bone scales a different shield and a United Boker Solingen with a tree tang stamp. Just Judging from the United Boker knives compared to their Boker counterparts I believe this is probably the real story. The agreement only lasted a few years as Boker Germany got the rights to the Boker brand back and re-established Boker USA in around 1986. I believe this is the real story

The problem with sorting this all out is a sparsity of info a as well as some statements I have seen that they are not Real Bokers and were made under license to United, implying that United had them made somewhere other than Boker. In some Boker time line3s the United Boker tang stamp is absent. I saw this several times in the Boker USA forum in the Mfrs section around 2005 where someone would ask about a United Boker to be told Not a real Boker, Made under license by United and to contact them. The problem is that the original United Cutlery of the mid to late 1980's is no more and Smokey Mountain Knife Works only has limited info now.

So, What are they? I think they are Boker knives, made in Solingen at the Boker facility. I think that United ordered from the standard Boker line but specified the tang stamp, their own pattern numbers blade etch and shield and some very nice handle material. Other that that they appear to be the same frame, blades, steel and I consider them a real Boker made for a short time period.

I also think it is the United Cutlery connection that makes some people think cheap and shoddy but truth is United put out some good stuff under their name along with the junk.

What is your opinion. What do you think and even better what do you KNOW.

There was an article about United in Knives Illustrated about Dec 06 or Jan 07 that may or may not have info but I have not been able to find a copy yet.

here is what SMKW had to say.

 

[r8shell]

Here's a timeline, as posted on Boker USA's website:

Boker USA

www.bokerusa.com

Excerpt:
"...1983: US knife production ended
1984: United BOKER formed with Smoky Mountain Knife and Blue Ridge Knife to create a financial sales partnership
1986: Boker USA reformed and established sales offices and warehousing in Colorado..."

From the History page:

The Subsidiaries
"In the early 1960's Boker USA was sold to the well-known scissor manufacturer Wiss & Sons who kept up the production of Boker knives to sell them with other Solingen products. Boker scissors disappeared from the market, being a competitor to Wiss. In the early 1970's Wiss was sold to the multinational Cooper Industries. This change proved benificial for Boker, generating a close business and personal relationship with Cooper, who restored the name of Boker to its former grandeur.

During the eight years this active relationship lasted, Solingen was able to rationalise production and to develop new and innovative products. Today Boker offers the broadest range of sports and collector´s knives with an unmatched variety of blade and handle materials. Cooper stopped their own knife production in 1983. Original models are still in production in Solingen. Three years later Boker Solingen reacquired the rights for the American brand as a result of friendly negotiations with Cooper and was therefore in the position to enter the huge American market on it’s own. Boker USA, Inc. was established in Denver In July 1986 , Colorado. Since then Boker USA is operating very successfully in the North-American markets."

It's a little confusing, since United Boker isn't mentioned here. I interpret the sentence I've highlighted in bold to mean that Boker knives were still being produced in Solingen after 1983.

 

[sceva]

It's definitely more than a little confusing; There are benefits though as people tend to think cheap fantasy knives or Rambo when it come to United Cutlery but they sold some really good stuff too. The good stuff can sometimes be got at a good price due to some shying away from the United name. I don't think I would buy any of the celluloid scaled United Bokers due to the potential for outgassing but the jigged bone ones are very nice. Of course you would expect a nice knife from Boker.

An obligatory photo

 

[r8shell]

Ah, yes. What's a thread without photos?

 

[Luke_Chambers]

Made by Boker or Made under license to Boker?

If it says "Solingen" on the tang stamp, then the knife has essentially been made in the town of Solingen. This is according to an old and unique copy-right law in Germany.
From German Wiki: "Solingenverordnung" = "Solingen regulation" - This designation (Solingen) may only be used in commercial transactions for cutlery that has been processed and finished in all essential stages of production within the Solingen industrial area.

 

[Hickory n steel]

If it says "Solingen" on the tang stamp, then the knife has essentially been made in the town of Solingen. This is according to an old and unique copy-right law in Germany.
From German Wiki: "Solingenverordnung" = "Solingen regulation" - This designation (Solingen) may only be used in commercial transactions for cutlery that has been processed and finished in all essential stages of production within the Solingen industrial area.

Yes, but there were other Cutler's in Solingen and there has been assumption that the knives were contracted to say Olbertz or something as Jim Parker was known to do.

 

[Luke_Chambers]

Yes, but there were other Cutler's in Solingen and there has been assumption that the knives were contracted to say Olbertz or something as Jim Parker was known to do.

Yes, this for sure is a possibility.

 

[sceva]

I do not think that Boker would have licensed United ( Smokey Mountain & Blue Ridge) to put the Boker name on knives made elsewhere. I could be wrong but Smokey Mountain says Boker made them, In the Boker Book it says Boker made them and the paper the knife was wrapped in implies they are Boker Made.

I know there are those that think United contracted elsewhere for cheap knives and had them marked Boker but I do not think so. I think this is because of two things mostly, The United Cutlery connection and that the United Bokers do not fit neatly into either Boker USA's or Boker Germany's histories. and are more of a blip in the road between Boker USA's demise and Boker USA's reincarnation.

It is fun trying to work this all out and I am very interested in hearing other opinions, even if contrary to mine.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I know there are those that think United contracted elsewhere for cheap knives and had them marked Boker but I do not think so.

I have no doubt that they're made in Germany , and they just look like Boker products to me.
I'm sure somebody like Olbertz could have made them but why have somebody else closely copy Boker products when they could just go straight to Boker for the originals.

 

[dsutton24]

I do not think that Boker would have licensed United ( Smokey Mountain & Blue Ridge) to put the Boker name on knives made elsewhere.

Once again, don't get hung up on what others think is a 'real' <whatever> knife. That kind of opinion only demonstrates that that guy knows nothing about the knife industry. This is the history of cutlery makers the world over. Manufacturers make components and even complete knives with their competitor's names on them. Remember, you're seeing knives are being manufactures under agreement between Boker and United in Solingen. I beleive this to be true. Nowhere have I seen an authoritative account of them being made in a Boker facility.

I believe at least some Boker knives were made by Klaas and Hoffritz. Why? Every knife maker has stylistic touches that vary a little from the next guy. A lot of the older Bokers resemble Klaas knives very closely. This isn't research, it's opinion based on handling a lot of German knives. Could be right, could be doo-doo.

Neal's books are excellent in every regard. He has put a lot of work into his books, and I believe firmly that he has done a very good job with them. But, I've read a lot of knife books, talked to a lot of knife guys, and handled a zillion knives. there is no such thing as a definitive book on the cutlery industry. Knife collecting is a fairly recent thing, and manufacturers didn't archive a lot of technical material, and catering to collectors was the last thing on anyone's mind. An awful lot of what we think we know is based on sales material and stuff the old guys remember.

 

[herder]

Sceva and dsutton24, thanks for the kind words towards the Boker book.
While Ricky and I spent years gathering information and putting the book together, there will always be things that need to be corrected or updated. We each wrote certain chapters in the book and Ricky wrote the section on United Boker with nothing more that I could add or offer at that time. I continued to collect catalogs and paperwork for Boker after the book was finished and can add some information to this topic.

I am 99 % certain that Boker did make that two-blade Congress model for United Cutlery that Sceva had shown. I have also since learned that United Cutlery stopped offering Boker knives by the late 1980s, not 1994 as the book stated. Enclosed are some pictures to help back up these statements. The first picture shows that two-blade Congress being sold by Smoky Mountain (United) as a close out "discontinued" model in a 1990 catalog. So, United Cutlery was done selling Boker knives by that time and no Boker knives are seen in a 1991 Smoky Mountain catalog. The second picture shows a two-blade Boker Congress model from a factory Boker catalog from 1982 which looks like an exact match for the one in the 1990 Smoky Mountain catalog. Aside from different handle material and blade etches, they appear to be the same. That same two-blade Congress model is not seen in a factory Boker catalog from 1990, but they did offer a four-blade model.

So, it appears that Boker did in fact produce that two-blade Congress model for United Cutlery from probably 1984 to the later 1980s, even though Boker in Denver, Colorado was established in 1986.
There may have been a possible overlap with Denver and United Cutlery in the late 1980s???

 

[sceva]

That is great info herder. It does look to be the same knife except for the handle scale material and the markings.

That rosewood half congress is sweet.

 

[herder]

That is great info herder. It does look to be the same knife except for the handle scale material and the markings.

That rosewood half congress is sweet.

Thanks, and I enjoy intelligent discussions that we all learn from.