Unpinned hidden tang fixed blades

ADBrown

ADBrown

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Nov 14, 2021
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What's the general feeling about unpinned hidden tang fixed blade knives? I prefer full tang knives (pinned), but understand from a design aesthetic why hidden tangs are preferable and even necessary in some cases. But unpinned? As much as I might love a knife with a hidden tang, I won't buy it if there's not a mechanical connection of some type (eg pommel secured to the tang). I'm uneasy about relying solely on epoxy to secure the handle to the blade. What's been your experience?
 
if it's a ''light use''(?) knife I'd be ok with it I guess.

otherwise I'd thread the end of a rat tail tang and toss a nut on the end.

I'm thinking .25'' diamiter mind you.... ah. someday......
 
Depends on who made it and the proposed usage.
Hunting knife for processing game? Not a problem.
Survival knife for chopping? Problem.

Outfit that knows what they are doing? Not a problem.
New custom maker just trying to figure stuff out? Problem

Got several Moras. Hidden tangs. Not a problem for most usages. Mora knows what they are doing.
 
I have a couple knives made like this and aren't worried about the handles sliding off with the epoxies being used today. (These are handmade knives though so I trust the makers).
 
ADBrown said:
Beautiful displays! If not pinned, how were the handles attached? There must've been some adhesive used that obviously predated epoxy resin. A pine tar compound?
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Thanks!
They used a natural glue called la-ha. It was from a tree and they would need to heat it up and would place it into the handle along with the tang. And, these were not knives that they babied, they using these big heavy blades for all sorts of daily tasks. This method of construction is the truest traditional method of the Kukri Knife 👍😊👍
 
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Of course I'm not concerned with light use, but rather those with longer, heavier blades subject to higher impact forces - than say cutting vegetables. I'm also assuming proper heat treatment; no pin or adhesive prevents a fractured blade.
 
I have dozens of big Thai knives with stick tangs. Many of them never had the hollow bamboo handle glued on (using shellac). They have generously long tangs that are burned into the handle. But after some years of storage and rust on the tang, I cannot get the blades out of the handle! I can pound on the steel ferrule up front and dent the metal, but they won't budge. But having the tang burned into the handle makes for a very snug fit. Normally they use stick lac (raw shellac) to fasten the handles.

I note the mention of la-ha as a glue. I wonder is it is shellac in it's raw form, which is a Lac insect excretion from certain trees. It's a natural polymer and is dandy for gluing knives if it's crunched up and the knife tang is heated and tapped into place. It is not sticky unless heated (or dissolved in alcohol, as is shellac).

Here is stick Lac, and various processed forms:

1656883564444.jpeg

1656883624993.png
 
USMCPOP said:
I have dozens of big Thai knives with stick tangs. Many of them never had the hollow bamboo handle glued on (using shellac). They have generously long tangs that are burned into the handle. But after some years of storage and rust on the tang, I cannot get the blades out of the handle! I can pound on the steel ferrule up front and dent the metal, but they won't budge. But having the tang burned into the handle makes for a very snug fit. Normally they use stick lac (raw shellac) to fasten the handles.

I note the mention of la-ha as a glue. I wonder is it is shellac in it's raw form, which is a Lac insect excretion from certain trees. It's a natural polymer and is dandy for gluing knives if it's crunched up and the knife tang is heated and tapped into place. It is not sticky unless heated (or dissolved in alcohol, as is shellac).

Here is stick Lac, and various processed forms:

View attachment 1861202

View attachment 1861203
Click to expand...
I wouldn't know, my only knowing that the Nepalese call it LaHa.
It must be some good stuff!
Even so, I bet some modern day two part epoxies are even MUCH better. So, I imagine if done correctly, glue to secure a blade is pretty trustworthy.
With that said, I do believe that tangs being pinned in as well, does give more confidence that a separation is much less likely to occur 😊
 
USMCPOP said:
I have dozens of big Thai knives with stick tangs. Many of them never had the hollow bamboo handle glued on (using shellac). They have generously long tangs that are burned into the handle. But after some years of storage and rust on the tang, I cannot get the blades out of the handle! I can pound on the steel ferrule up front and dent the metal, but they won't budge. But having the tang burned into the handle makes for a very snug fit. Normally they use stick lac (raw shellac) to fasten the handles.

I note the mention of la-ha as a glue. I wonder is it is shellac in it's raw form, which is a Lac insect excretion from certain trees. It's a natural polymer and is dandy for gluing knives if it's crunched up and the knife tang is heated and tapped into place. It is not sticky unless heated (or dissolved in alcohol, as is shellac).

Here is stick Lac, and various processed forms:

View attachment 1861202

View attachment 1861203
Click to expand...
Yes, I've used shellac considerably for period correct finishes on my woodworking pieces (french polish, etc), but was unaware it had ever been used as an adhesive. (I used hide glue for joints, veneer, etc because it's reversible in case repairs are needed). I've also burned in handles for chisels with great as success - but of course those aren't used as agressively, and the applied force is usually in the direction of the cut. Thanks for the very interesting information! If it worked successfully then, surely epoxy is an upgrade. I'll still favor pinned handles for all but lighter use knives.
 
PocketKnifeJimmy said:
I wouldn't know, my only knowing that the Nepalese call it LaHa.
It must be some good stuff!
Even so, I bet some modern day two part epoxies are even MUCH better. So, I imagine if done correctly, glue to secure a blade is pretty trustworthy.
With that said, I do believe that tangs being pinned in as well, does give more confidence that a separation is much less likely to occur 😊
Click to expand...
Lac is big in India and nearby countries. Sure, epoxy can be more durable, but not necessarily needed. I sometime use a polyurethane construction adhesive to glue the tangs. I wouldn't worry about a pin unless I was using a big knife in low temperature conditions where the glue might become brittle. Shellac is indeed good stuff.


1656885047677.png
 
Depends on if the handle is one piece or multi piece. Multi would be best if pinned together prior to assembly and the tang has rough edges. One piece would be best with some sort of rough edge tang that the epoxy would secure or a notch out that allows the epoxy to fill and secure. The stronger the epoxy the better.
 
Never had a problem with stick tangs that were not pinned. And I've beaten my Cold Steels, Fallknivens, SOGs pretty hard.
These knives have a stick tang running through Kraton/Thermorun and are very light and durable. Cleaning a knife is as easy as
throwing it into a bucket of soapy water.
Japanese swords are pinned with a single wood pin. And in the old days (pre-1600 ad) they cut people wearing armor all day long on the battlefields.
The blades occasionally broke but not the tangs.
I of course have full several tang/pinned knives and I appreciate them too. They certainly look nicer regardless of scale material.
My Western handled Kitchen knives are all full tang/pinned as I prefer that weight distribution.
 
view


100% Confident in these. The epoxy is probably tougher than the Sambar Stag is
 
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My understanding is that stick tangs have been used successfully for a long time in Kukris. They have to be made right to work. Stress risers need to be removed, the shape needs to be right, the tang portion has a different temper than that blade edge, which is harder for edge retention, to make it tougher and more malleable so it will not snap under the stress of chopping. The handle and glue helps to reinforce the tang and absorb some of the shock.

Be aware if it's made by one of the many many penny pinching corner cutting slacker outfits out there, the tang will be prone to breaking sending the blade flying who knows where, The same applies to full tang blades.

The concept of full tang blades was not unknown in the shall we say olden days. It is generally known to be stronger but why was it not the de facto standard. Maybe that can be explained from a user's point of view.

Stick tang Kukris (from what I read at a well known quality Kukri makers webite that makes both full tang and stick tang Kukris) are generally more lightweight with a different balance that is preferred by many if not most users. The stick tang handle because of it's design transfers less shock to the hand when chopping than a solid full tang. The shape of the handle, in most cases, is a little different and more ergonomic. They say the balance of the stick tang Kukri is better for faster, swifter movements. Finally if made right the stick tang works it really does work good enough.

The stick tangs I am talking about though are bolted or peened in some way on the other side of the handle in addition to being glued and not just held by glue alone. I am no expert you tell me but it seems that this design has withstood the test of time.
 
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KenHash said:
Never had a problem with stick tangs that were not pinned. And I've beaten my Cold Steels, Fallknivens, SOGs pretty hard.
These knives have a stick tang running through Kraton/Thermorun and are very light and durable. Cleaning a knife is as easy as
throwing it into a bucket of soapy water.
Japanese swords are pinned with a single wood pin. And in the old days (pre-1600 ad) they cut people wearing armor all day long on the battlefields.
The blades occasionally broke but not the tangs.
I of course have full several tang/pinned knives and I appreciate them too. They certainly look nicer regardless of scale material.
My Western handled Kitchen knives are all full tang/pinned as I prefer that weight distribution.
Click to expand...

Those Japanese swords were/are fantastic and well made, outstanding, they took forever to make. I am sure they could cut people wearing armor all day.

The Japanese Samurai were a lot like modern soldiers in that they preferred to shoot their enemies. They were well trained in the use of the bow and arrow which was their primary weapon of choice in battle. I am sure the value of a good AR rifle would not have been overlooked by them. I also understand arrows do not pierce all armor. Hmmmm this is where I am lost maybe this is where the swords would come into play ?? The sword was a valued item I am sure and took a good amount of time and skill to make.

Did they use other weapons too ? Oh sorry I am off topic here.
 
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