Untraditional axe making ?? Good or bad ?

Moonw said:
It is odd, indeed. Curious as well.
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What would you suggest as a superior alternative to D2? Since this is my first attempt to design an axe I welcome the experts opinions on this forum. Thanks.
 
Kerry W said:
Thanks for your reply Steve. I have read MANY of your posts and have high regard for your opinion. In its current iteration it is pretty much a wedge. I got some inspiration from a photo of a Tuatahi Racing axe I had by my desk for years. Per your suggestion I think I will add some mass to the poll and see what it looks like. I can (in the software) calculate the center of gravity, evaluate and adjust accordingly. I was just going for what I thought was nice lines.
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I'd suggest bringing the center of gravity so it sits 1/4" inside the front of the eye. That's sort of the industry rule of thumb and will ensure that it balances "normally".

As to the steel, D2 is pretty wear resistant, but it's not very shock resistant. If I were opting for a premium steel for an axe I'd probably go for something like S7.
 
Kerry W said:
What would you suggest as a superior alternative to D2? Since this is my first attempt to design an axe I welcome the experts opinions on this forum. Thanks.
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What 42 said. I am not an expert but D2 is known to be on the brittle side, indeed.

S7, if you want to be fancy :) (but don't expect incredible edge retention). Otherwise, go with the "tried an true" carbon steels (1065, 1075 and even higher in carbon if you are willing to temper them lower).
 
Kerry W said:
Hello. I have been interested in making an axe in a somewhat non traditional way as well. Mine, if I actually do it, will be 3D machined out of a solid billet of D2. The images are of the model I have came up with so far. This is my seventh iteration. It has some features of axes I have admired aesthetically. I would welcome others opinions and feedback. View attachment 987186 View attachment 987187 View attachment 987185
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Looks way thicker in the eye than is needed. Especially in the front. The bevels remind me of the original Kelly Perfect. The sharp step of the bevels just in front of the eye was rumored to be a weakness and the reason more examples didn't survive.
 
I agree with what Steve said. For the bevels, I would look at the Lippingcott patterns on pages 7-9 of "The American Axe and Tool Co.", 1894 catalog. I also like the Southern Kentucky Pattern Bevels on page 25. A high centerline would also be important to me. I do like your initial design as a starting point.
 
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garry3 said:
Looks way thicker in the eye than is needed. Especially in the front. The bevels remind me of the original Kelly Perfect. The sharp step of the bevels just in front of the eye was rumored to be a weakness and the reason more examples didn't survive.
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It is a bit thick in the eye. A con session I feel like I need to make for machinability. The small inside fillet is .125”. So, a 1/4” diameter end mill. I may try to move the bevels out a bit or soften them a little. Ultimately I doubt this small axe will see hard use, but I would still like to evolve a good design. Thanks for the feedback.
 
Moonw said:
What 42 said. I am not an expert but D2 is known to be on the brittle side, indeed.

S7, if you want to be fancy :) (but don't expect incredible edge retention). Otherwise, go with the "tried an true" carbon steels (1065, 1075 and even higher in carbon if you are willing to temper them lower).
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S7 and D2 were my final choices for the steel. Ultimately I have decided to go with D2 for the better edge retention. I feel the robustness of the edge has a great deal to do with its geometry and heat treat. I plan to harden it to around 55-58. If the edge breaks I will try again. Maybe out of S7! Life is full of experiments. Thanks again for your input.
 
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Old Axeman said:
I agree with what Steve said. For the bevels, I would look at the Lippingcott patterns on pages 7-9 of "The American Axe and Tool Co.", 1894 catalog. I also like the Southern Kentucky Pattern Bevels on page 25. A high centerline would also be important to me. I do like your initial design as a starting point.
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Thanks. I don’t have a copy of that catalog, but I will be looking for it. I did find an image on the internet. Is this close to your suggestion?
 
That is the image on page 9 of the 1894 catalog. But, it would not be my first choice as the front of the bevels are to close to the cutting edge to suite me. My first choice would be the bevels similar to the head on page 8, but with a little more high center than the page 8 head seems to show. Also, keep the lugs that you have in your design. Sorry, I dont have the skills to post the picture.
Another pattern, which is my favorite all around design, is figure 13, page 7, in "An Ax To Grind"manual. Also, look at the top photo in figure 15, page 8, a Bluegrass Western pattern double-bit with bevels and a high center.
 
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Old Axeman said:
Another pattern, which is my favorite all around design, is figure 13, page 7, in "An Ax To Grind"manual. Also, look at the top photo in figure 15, page 8, a Bluegrass Western pattern double-bit with bevels and a high center.
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Figure 13 and Figure 15 from "An Ax To Grind":

fig013.jpg


fig015.jpg
 
Kerry W said:
S7 and D2 were my final choices for the steel. Ultimately I have decided to go with D2 for the better edge retention. I feel the robustness of the edge has a great deal to do with its geometry and heat treat. I plan to harden it to around 55-58.
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Man, if it ain't too late to change your mind, I think you're making a mistake.

There is no way D2 will have better "edge retention" vs. S7 in the context of a chopping/impact tool. If you're making a knife that will slice dirty carpet all day, then yeah, the added wear resistance of D2 will win the day. But you give up a huge amount of impact resistance with those big carbides. They won't have a chance to do their job if the microscopic edge is breaking away from impact forces.

I have several chopping tools that have never once gotten dull from abrasive wear. I have to sharpen out nicks and dings and other impact damage before they lose their bite from wear.

Now, I do have a few hatchets that I've managed to only use on clear clean wood (i.e., wood carving projects), that had lost their hair shaving edge by the end of the evening, but were still working fine. And you know what? It only takes 2 or 3 swipes per side on a fine hone to restore that hair shaving edge, in a matter of seconds. That's the potential improvement you'd see from D2. Saving literally 6 seconds of sharpening every few hours of use. But the potential downside is huge. Take a look through this forum at all the pics of old axes guys have found with toes, heels, or big chunks of the bit broken completely off. And that's with steel that is, what, like 2 or 3 times more impact resistant than D2?
 
the possum said:
Man, if it ain't too late to change your mind, I think you're making a mistake.

There is no way D2 will have better "edge retention" vs. S7 in the context of a chopping/impact tool. If you're making a knife that will slice dirty carpet all day, then yeah, the added wear resistance of D2 will win the day. But you give up a huge amount of impact resistance with those big carbides. They won't have a chance to do their job if the microscopic edge is breaking away from impact forces.

I have several chopping tools that have never once gotten dull from abrasive wear. I have to sharpen out nicks and dings and other impact damage before they lose their bite from wear.

Now, I do have a few hatchets that I've managed to only use on clear clean wood (i.e., wood carving projects), that had lost their hair shaving edge by the end of the evening, but were still working fine. And you know what? It only takes 2 or 3 swipes per side on a fine hone to restore that hair shaving edge, in a matter of seconds. That's the potential improvement you'd see from D2. Saving literally 6 seconds of sharpening every few hours of use. But the potential downside is huge. Take a look through this forum at all the pics of old axes guys have found with toes, heels, or big chunks of the bit broken completely off. And that's with steel that is, what, like 2 or 3 times more impact resistant than D2?
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Exactly! You are looking at different "dulling mechanisms" affecting the edge in chopping vs slicing. Good point.
 
Speaking of all this steel talk, I wonder what one made of M4V would do, it'd cost an arm and a leg I'm sure and probably wouldn't hold the edge very long but image it for a race axe.
Iust admit I don't know much about the differences in steels apart from the most common.
 
I for one would love to see how the low hardness D2 turns out, simply out of curiosity. I don't know that I've seen anything outside of the high 50's in a tool. I'm kind of curious how it would do with the convex cheeks vs a lot of the thinner cheeked axes I like such as a hudson bay or rinaldi. Makes me curious if the right geometry would allow for both good retention and "tough enough" to get the job done. I know I've gone down the other spectrum some with fiskars axes that are tough as heck but not the greatest edge retention and working on some dead ash was awful. A bit of a specialty use but the higher hardness of the snow and neally and rinaldis make the work much nicer. However, I don't think D2 is ideal by any means but I'm curious if it would work out just fine with the right temper, even if there are better alternatives. Complete guess but I think at the low temper there would be more stainless resistance due to the reduction of carbides in solution, or whatever the metallurgical terminology is (not an expert at all).

As far as using modern tools, I think it's fine. You should be able to pull of a differential heat treat that is somewhat similar to forging the blade creating the good edge retention while keeping the overall bit tough for years of use. The last sentence is partly where I think D2 could be interesting as I've not heard of it getting differential HT and while I could see it working well for a while I would have questions of the long term survivability of it.
 
Here is the thing, D2 is like 1.5% carbon, which is great if you want lots of carbides... which is usually the goal in a knife with high wear resistance. But an axe is the other extreme end of the spectrum... you want high impact resistance & toughness in an axe.

The Best option (imho) is 5160, taking into account cost... if cost is no concern, then try out 3v :)
 
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