Using the (ceramic) Coffee Cup

afishhunter

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I know I am not the only one around here who uses the unglazed ring on the bottom of an empty ceramic coffee cup to sharpen/freshen up the edge.
Does anyone use the glazed lip, too?
I noticed today that using the glazed lip left a faint gray line (my coffee cup is white) where the blade was stroked.

Any idea what the grit might be where the cup is glazed?
 
glazed ceramics is imo overrated

it cuts very slowly yes but it also means that it cuts very very finely.

maybe we could all agree on that
 
afish, it will be very fine. Something around 2000 grit but made differently than the ceramic Spyderco stone. DM
 
Isn't the glaze like a layer of glass? I conjecture that you are observing adhesive wear. There would not be a grit equivalent for that, but the properties of the metal would affect the microscopic finish as they do macroscopically in galling, etc.
 
Most of the 'ceramics' utilized in making coffee mugs & other dishware are made with clays utilizing natural silica-based minerals (sand, feldspar, etc). When using them to tune up a knife edge, I view their effectiveness for actual sharpening, ie., cutting of the steel, in the same light as I'd view something like a natural stone (Arkansas, etc.) at best. I don't generally expect anything more aggressive than that. In all the coffee mugs & such I've tried, the ones that actually seemed able to cut the steel still didn't do it very cleanly, leaving the edge sort of 'sharper', but with other raggedness and/or deformation or burring. Sort of hit-or-miss, as to when they work or with what cutlery steels they'll work effectively. But, most of the time I use such a device, I do it in the same manner as I'd use a honing steel, more for the sake of straightening or aligning an edge, rather than reshaping it or doing much serious grinding of the steel. And with that in mind, most of time I'll use the glazed edge like a polished honing steel, instead of using the unglazed portion.
 
I believe there is a significant fraction of alumina in common tableware ceramic, in addition to the silicates. The ones I have are hard enough to easily scratch plate glass.
 
Plate glass isn't very hard, as compared to even other silica-based minerals which can be harder, but still much less hard than alumina. Doesn't really take much to scratch it.

As a test of this to confirm my suspicions, I just scratched a piece of plate glass I've used for sandpaper sharpening, with the corner of my black hard Arkansas pocket stone ('novaculite' silica-based mineral, about 40% of the hardness of alumina). The mineral quartz crystal on my wristwatch also has scratches on it from inadvertent contact with the coarse sand mixed into stucco on our house's exterior walls.

Also tried a piece of quartz stone I'd previously picked up in the yard. It also scratched the plate glass.
 
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You're right, that was a poor test and I it seems I was wrong about hardness. From Wikipedia: "On the Mohs scale, a streak plate (unglazed porcelain) has a hardness of approximately 7.0." Nevertheless Encyclopaedia Britannica says:

Clay minerals are composed essentially of silica, alumina or magnesia or both, and water, but iron substitutes for aluminum and magnesium in varying degrees, and appreciable quantities of potassium, sodium, and calcium are frequently present as well. Some clay minerals may be expressed using ideal chemical formulas as the following: 2SiO2·Al2O3·2H2O (kaolinite), 4SiO2·Al2O3·H2O (pyrophyllite), 4SiO2·3MgO·H2O (talc), and 3SiO2·Al2O3·5FeO·4H2O (chamosite).
Does the alumina content provide Mohs 9 hardness at the microscopic scale, just like bound abrasive in a synthetic whetstone, or is the chemical structure such that no part of the fired ceramic is functionally that hard?
 
I think the alumina present in materials mentioned for clays is there in such small percentage, it has minimal impact on overall hardness. For example, the kaolinite mentioned has a Mohs hardness of less than 3 (2 - 2.5). The pyrophyllite is even less hard at 1 - 1.5 on the Mohs scale; apparently soft enough to be scratched with a fingernail. And the chamosite is listed around 3 on the Mohs scale.

Some time back, I had wondered also about the effectiveness of some types of clay brick as sharpening stones. At that time, I'd tried touching up a simple blade in something like 1095 or 420HC on a red clay brick, and was disappointed in the result. Started looking into the composition of clay bricks, and found they also might have very small amounts of alumina in similar chemical compositions (I remember seeing the reference to kaolinite, for example). But in most of the commonly used bricks for general construction, the alumina content was insignificant as compared to the silica content. Some types of firebrick made for fireplaces and such will have higher alumina content for it's greater heat resistance. But that's getting into more specialized forms, and likely isn't typical for most brick.
 
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Yes, 'hit & miss'. The same for me. The cup seems to be ok for bending back a created burr. But not hard or strong in removing one. DM
 
Yeah the amount of alumina is small enough in most household ceramics as to be insignificant for such work. Most of the abrasion that occurs is from silica.
 
From what I am reading high-kaolin clay is elementally about 30% Al₂O₃ but this is chemically part of hydrous aluminum silicates that are very soft. When firing clay "needle shaped crystals of mullite 3Al₂O₃•2SiO₂ begin to form, giving [it] strength and hardness" which apparently has a hardness of 6 to 7 Mohs or 1070 Vickers. My curiosity is satisfied.

Screen-Shot-2018-05-04-at-2.33.21-PM-1024x231.png

Source: https://ceramicartsnetwork.org/ceramic-recipes/reference/clay-minerals/
 
The other thing I think about, is sometimes even the silica in some of this stuff varies in hardness over a range. Some mineral forms of it aren't quite up to cutting hardened steel, while others are. I got to thinking about this again last night, trying different types of silica-based rocks I've collected around here. Quartz is relatively hard, being able to scratch glass at least, while a couple others I tried didn't even do that. I've collected a few pieces of obsidian as well, which is nearly pure silica, save for impurities coloring it. Obsidian, being almost pure silica, is also 'amorphous', meaning it has no crystal structure (like quartz does). That also limits how hard, strong or tough it can be (obsidian wouldn't scratch the plate glass, when I tried it). The crystal structure of different types of silicate minerals makes a difference in how hard they might be, or in how they're shaped (sharp, acutely-angled edges or more blocky or blunt).

With the mix of varying types of silica in garden-variety (sometimes inexpensive) ceramic kitchenware, and with some of it likely not able to cut steel effectively, but still hard enough to do damage to a blade's edge, I think there's a lot of give & take in terms of how effective these ceramics can be. Maybe a little bit of hard silica & alumina to do some cutting. But at the same time, there's other stuff in the mix which does more damage to a keen edge (by plastic deformation or chipping) than good. In other words, while some of the cleaner-cutting elements might be cutting or thinning an edge, some of the other stuff is basically inflicting blunt-force trauma against the keen edge, denting, rolling, chipping or burring it. I suspect that's part of what makes it 'hit-or-miss' in how well some of these ceramics might work for sharpening purposes.

So, all this being said, sometimes you might find something that works fairly well at a given moment, with a given blade. And at other times, not so much.
 
For me this is method that has proven to work on all my kitchen knife steels, notably Victorinox and DexterRussel proprietary "dexsteel" which is billed as a gine grained stainless.

On a white mug you can see some metal is being removed. I'm guessing these are 52-54 RC. The biggest factor I've noticed in the unglazed ring is how new the mug, or how rough the surface is. The glazed rim is mostly burnishing. I've tried this on 440c and a few other higher carbide steels at higher RC, it predictably doesn't work very well, though you can still use the unglazed rim like a smooth steel.
 
The use of glazed ceramic has been a standard in old European delicatessens for the past 200 years. Holding the big slicing knives flat around the curved inside of a 5 liter glazed pickle jar gave the user a guided sharpener that met all their needs. This practice was brought to the US by immigrants who opened their own delicatessens/butcher shops and is STILL used by many of the old timers.


Stitchawl
 
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