USMC Combat knife comparison

[MacGyver125]

I am a US Marine. As most of you know, we traditionally use the KA-BAR for combat, and I've recently been looking at the Tanto KA-BAR along with the Cold Steel Leatherneck SF and Tanto and wondering if any of those 3 would be a suitable (better) replacement for my Traditional KA-BAR.
Both companies have solid reputations for good reasons, and I could care less what name is scratched on the side...Just because it's a famous name or a copy of a famous name DOESN'T make it better or worse. I care about performance under pressure.

Who doesn't love the classic look of the USMC KA-BAR? However, the Tanto point is stronger, and could make a difference in penetration. I'm no expert, so if I'm wrong on that, please tell me...

Please focus on the combat application first and foremost...and please include WHY you're making the suggestion that you're making.

The knives I'm considering are:
Full-size Black KA-BAR USMC, Straight Edge
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/230
Full-size Black KA-BAR Tanto, Straight Edge
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/12
Cold Steel Leatherneck SF
http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/39LSFD/Leatherneck-SF.aspx
Cold Steel Leatherneck Tanto
http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/39LSFDT/Leatherneck-Tanto.aspx

This is to evaluate which manufacturer and blade shape is BETTER...I don't care how minuscule the difference is...better is better.

Edit:
I'm also curious about these 3: (tell me which of the above 4 is best BEFORE comparing it to these 3 please)
Black KA-BAR Fighter
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/10
D2 Extreme Fighting/Utility Knife
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/14
Recon Tanto
http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/13RTKJ1/Recon_Tanto.aspx

Edit:
The handle of these knives works for me...it's tried and true, and I like the heavy/solid feel of it in my hands. I like the handle of the D2 best...the ONLY thing I'm trying to decide here is which manufacturer and which blade type (standard vs tanto)...I'm not going to consider anything that isn't this specific style of knife.

 

[fq55]

Get the original and send it to Josh at Razors Edge. It will out perform the stock knives on your list and better value.

 

[Gaston444]

I think the USMC Kabar is a poor design generally: Off centered blunt point, dull low sabre-grind, thin snap-prone blade devoid of chopping power, and snap prone stick tang: This knife is useable but manages to combine all the worst features that usually are mutually exclusive...: A dull low sabre grind knife is usually strong for instance, but not here... A dull-profile point knife usually has some chopping heft, but not here... The worst of all features somehow brought together...

My number one recommendation in that style of knife -that is also in current production, so expendable- would be the SOG Super Bowie: It is great value for the price and quality of finish, is one quarter inch thick, and has some serious chopping power without being too bulky... The edge has some finesse from being hollow ground. Biggest advantage from your point of view is a more aggressive point geometry without it being weak. Remember that any belly or steeply angled point (tanto) will push clothing and then push the skin underneath, all that hugely negating point-cutting in a fight, so what you need to look for are points with little belly so there is no rounded belly to push materials instead of grabbing the materials and cutting into them (a straighter edge is closer in shape to a "hook", so it will hook and cut flesh more than a bellied edge, no matter how sharp the bellied point tries to be): Daggers point-cut better in a fight as well, because the edge also often lacks belly...: This is not widely understood but is a really obvious fighting requirement if you think about it, one where the Kabar doesn't score too well...

For combat I would choose a strong narrow and pointy dagger, especially if it is to be carried upside-down on the shoulder: Daggers are incredibly light for their size, easily one third less in weight (7 ounces to 10 ounces on a similar size single edge knife) because the grind removes more metal than any other design: This makes a huge difference after a day hanging from the shoulder... Unfortunately, for the weight advantage to work, a heavy all-aluminium handle is of no help, so I would not advise a Gerber Mk II type... I would look for an all-Kraton handle, but I don't know how good are the daggers currently available with those handles... In discontinued daggers I really like the Al MAr Shadow IV and Junglee Waterloo (stronger point): The SOG Desert Dagger is now still made and the closest I know of to being light and pointy, but I don't know how good are the current SOG iterations of the discontinued original design... They do have a hammer pommel and long serrations which -in theory- increase the utility aspect, but the low price doesn't inspire confidence...

If you can go a little bigger and must have a single edge, I'd also look into the TOPS USMC, but remember the low saber grind means it will be dull, and the full tang means it will be heavy... It is very well made for the price, pretty much indestructible and has the styling you look for with quite a bit of extra flair I feel (the workmanship on the handle is incredible, and the grippiness is probably the best of all, as TOPS makes the micarta finish feel "grippier" when wet, in addition to the design optimizing this here), but knowing TOPS it would probably need a trip to Razoredgeknives for the edge geometry...

Gaston

 

[M240G]

I think the tanto blade will penetrate an MRE the best. What is your MOS? Must be pretty hardcore if you're gonna be stabbin' with that thing.

Seriously though. As a machine gunner, my Kabar pulled double duty as a pry bar when opening ammo crates. My leatherman was my most valuable tool. If I had to do it all over again, I would bring my bk-2. So I guess I am of no use to you. However, you can't go wrong with the USMC Kabar.

 

[NG VI]

I like D2, it's a good one, off your list I'm picking the awfully named Extreme Fighting-Utility Ka-Bar.

 

[Gaston444]

If you read carefully the OP's post:

"Please focus on the combat application first and foremost..."

Unless opening MRE's is included in "Combat", that seems to me pretty explicit on what the OP wants... He also was concerned about the Tanto point "penetration" (which for a Tanto is always poor, for thrusting or slashing, the Cold Steel "mag+vest test" being done against a Gerber Mk II with the tip ground off visibly rounded, not that it made any sense to begin with, but it goes to show their "objective" methods)... Either fighting is what he meant, or "Combat" must be really be getting pretty broad these days...

The 5" BK-2 weights about the same as the 10" Lile "Mission"(16 ounces to 16.9): Given we recently had 3 threads on 3 different BK-2s breaking their tangs from batoning (you can bet the smaller full-width tangs on quality hollow handles are much harder to break, exactly the opposite of what every "expert" says). One BK-2 broke its tang from ordinary chopping(!!!)... I would say the BK-2 is just about the heaviest and least useful -for the weight- knife you could ever think of carrying...: Basically that huge weight is all handle... Of course it can still do the job, just like the much lighter Kabar, but the OP did say something specifically for combat...

And no, I'm just a totally uncredentialled civilian knife nut, who by the looks of it happens to know way, way more than most "knife experts", if there really is such a thing (I'm leaning towards no)...

Gaston

P.S. I agree the D2 is the nicest looking one in the OP's list...

 

[J W Bensinger]

Combat knife:99% utility, 1% antipersonnel scraper
Fighting knife: just that.
I carried a cold steel srk, a spyderco endura and a leatherman.
Order of most use was spydie, leatherman, srk.
The Kabar is not a bad knife in any of its iterations-as long as you respect the limitations of the design.
I have an ontario built "kabar" and it's sharp, reasonably weighted, and with a convex edge mod not a bad cutter. The round handled models need to be sanded oval for edge indexing IMO. As mentioned above te tang can be a weak point-though they usually bend before breaking. Laci Szabo carries a non-serrated, custom finished variant of the TOPS that looks to be nicely done, but it does look heavy.
A custom is also an option-when I went to play in the sand after the army I pretty much only carried stuff I'd made as far as fixed blades went.
If you're 0311 you'll probably want a lighter variant lol (former 11B "light" infantry here)

 

[MacGyver125]

Get the original and send it to Josh at Razors Edge. It will out perform the stock knives on your list and better value.

Awesome work. How do I get ahold of him?

I think the tanto blade will penetrate an MRE the best. What is your MOS? Must be pretty hardcore if you're gonna be stabbin' with that thing.

Seriously though. As a machine gunner, my Kabar pulled double duty as a pry bar when opening ammo crates. My leatherman was my most valuable tool. If I had to do it all over again, I would bring my bk-2. So I guess I am of no use to you. However, you can't go wrong with the USMC Kabar.

This will definitely NOT be used to open an MRE. Those are simple enough to open by hand. If this knife ever leaves its sheath, it will mean I'm out of bullets and people are about to lose their lives, if they haven't already.

If you read carefully the OP's post:

"Please focus on the combat application first and foremost..."
P.S. I agree the D2 is the nicest looking one in the OP's list...

Thanks for paying attention to that. Also, I like the look of that knife you put in your previous post. The weight won't matter much to me. I prefer heavier knives.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
To clarify...this knife (whichever one I pick) will be used for ONE thing, and ONE thing only...killing. I care only about how well it penetrates chest cavities, slits throats, and slashes through flesh...it will be razor sharp before I go in, and if it's dull when I come out, I can sharpen it right after I clean my gun. Combat knives are meant to be sharpened before you use them anyway...I ONLY care about how well it accomplishes the job when I'm there.

So far the original KA-BAR and the D2 have a couple votes each, but no one has said why they voted that way...

So in y'all's experience (I need informed opinions please) what do y'all think of the tanto blade vs the normal blade? What about the Cold Steel Leathernecks vs the KA-BAR? and what about the Recon Tanto?

And please keep in mind that these 7 are the ONLY knives up for consideration, unless one in the same category and style of knife is better.

 

[Gaston444]

I'd go with the Black Ka-bar fighter as a first choice, because the point is heavily dropped, which is absolutely essential for what you want (and the best of the 7 in that regard). The guard is thin and cheaper-looking than the D-2, but that probably saves enough weight to be noticed.

The black Ka-Bar Tanto has a very acute point for a Tanto, plus the straight blade helps compared to other Tantos, and it is a narrower blade that will get in-between two ribs easier. For a snap-cut tip-slicing motion however it will feel weaker in the point's penetration power than the Black Ka-bar fighter, and such point-cutting will probably make shallower flesh cuts. On the plus side, it doesn't have any feature to hang up when pulling out from an (unlikely) full-depth stab... That would be my second choice, but the first one is much better in my opinion...

One thing to remember is that to stab deeply a knife must start with your arm well coiled, so stabbing reach is actually, at best, elbow reach to actually stab deeply... Working with the point, the cutting can be done laterally, which means this can be done with the arm uncoiled, so it reaches way, way further... Reach is always terrible with a knife, so to me the better point cutter wins imho.

Gaston

 

[J W Bensinger]

If you're sticking with that design I'd go with the D2. That single guard variant is an expression of a mod guys have been doing since Vietnam to improve the design.
If all it's for is social work there are many, many better designs for that purpose. The original Kabar was designed as a combat knife (which to me is an all around field/troop knife) that could be used to fight with if necessary.
Straight up fighting knives (as opposed to "dueling" knives) are a different deal.

 

[Monofletch]

7 years in the military here 1990-1997 19K.
If you ever find yourself in such a situation I would think deployment speed would be more important than blade shape. Just pick one that feels comfortable and rides well with your gear.

 

[Ankerson]

I am a US Marine. As most of you know, we traditionally use the KA-BAR for combat, and I've recently been looking at the Tanto KA-BAR along with the Cold Steel Leatherneck SF and Tanto and wondering if any of those 3 would be a suitable (better) replacement for my Traditional KA-BAR.
Both companies have solid reputations for good reasons, and I could care less what name is scratched on the side...Just because it's a famous name or a copy of a famous name DOESN'T make it better or worse. I care about performance under pressure.

Who doesn't love the classic look of the USMC KA-BAR? However, the Tanto point is stronger, and could make a difference in penetration. I'm no expert, so if I'm wrong on that, please tell me...

Please focus on the combat application first and foremost...

The knives I'm considering are:
Full-size Black KA-BAR USMC, Straight Edge
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/230
Full-size Black KA-BAR Tanto, Straight Edge
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/12
Cold Steel Leatherneck SF
http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/39LSFD/Leatherneck-SF.aspx
Cold Steel Leatherneck Tanto
http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/39LSFDT/Leatherneck-Tanto.aspx

This is to evaluate which is BETTER...I don't care how minuscule the difference is...better is better.

Edit:
I'm also curious about these 3:
Black KA-BAR Fighter
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/10
D2 Extreme Fighting/Utility Knife
http://www.kabar.com/knives/detail/14
Recon Tanto
http://www.coldsteel.com/Product/13RTKJ1/Recon_Tanto.aspx

I'd still like to know which of the first 4 is the best of those 4, then please compare that one to these 3...

Carried a standard USMC KA-BAR for 4 years when I was in the USMC back in the 80's, worked fine for me.

 

[sams]

Carried a standard USMC KA-BAR for 4 years when I was in the USMC back in the 80's, worked fine for me.

Agree! I was issued a Mk 2 when I graduated BUDS, made one deployment with it. Worked fine for me in the Teams.

 

[GrinderMcgee]

I like the Leatherneck better for a couple reasons. Mostly the more solid construction, specifically, the thicker piece of steel in the tang and how it attaches to the pommel. I really would prefer the Recon Tanto, Magnum Tantos, or the Warcraft Tanto for my personal taste but that is up to you.

As an aside, the tanto point is NOT designed for penetration in a thrust, but for a technique called "snap cutting" where it does offer advantages. Check the Cold Steel resources for more information.

 

[MacGyver125]

I'd go with the Black Ka-bar fighter as a first choice, because the point is heavily dropped, which is absolutely essential for what you want (and the best of the 7 in that regard). The guard is thin and cheaper-looking than the D-2, but that probably saves enough weight to be noticed.

The black Ka-Bar Tanto has a very acute point for a Tanto, plus the straight blade helps compared to other Tantos, and it is a narrower blade that will get in-between two ribs easier. For a snap-cut tip-slicing motion however it will feel weaker in the point's penetration power than the Black Ka-bar fighter, and such point-cutting will probably make shallower flesh cuts. On the plus side, it doesn't have any feature to hang up when pulling out from an (unlikely) full-depth stab... That would be my second choice, but the first one is much better in my opinion...
Gaston

That helps a lot...so you feel that the Black Tanto KA-Bar is the best of the first 4, and the Black Ka-Bar Fighter is the best overall? What made you decide against the Cold Steel knives?

If you're sticking with that design I'd go with the D2. That single guard variant is an expression of a mod guys have been doing since Vietnam to improve the design.
If all it's for is social work there are many, many better designs for that purpose. The original Kabar was designed as a combat knife (which to me is an all around field/troop knife) that could be used to fight with if necessary.
Straight up fighting knives (as opposed to "dueling" knives) are a different deal.

In that case, what about the Tanto D2 vs the standard D2?
Could you elaborate on what you mean by fighting knife vs dueling knife?

I like the Leatherneck better for a couple reasons. Mostly the more solid construction, specifically, the thicker piece of steel in the tang and how it attaches to the pommel. I really would prefer the Recon Tanto, Magnum Tantos, or the Warcraft Tanto for my personal taste but that is up to you.

As an aside, the tanto point is NOT designed for penetration in a thrust, but for a technique called "snap cutting" where it does offer advantages. Check the Cold Steel resources for more information.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking. The Leatherneck seems to be built better, so I wanted some opinions of how it holds up against the Ka-Bar in execution.

If I have a clear understanding on Snap Cut technique, then I believe that technique is designed for longer swords that are very light such as a Katana, and would not work at all with a short knife like a Tanto. Please confirm?

The Recon Tanto is on my list, and I like what I've seen of it. I can't go with the Magnum cause it's not black, and I don't like the handle on the Warcraft Tanto personally. What makes you like the Recon Tanto better?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please keep in mind that I want to know which of the first 4 on my list is better before y'all evaluate which of the other 3 compares to it. I'm SPECIFICALLY trying to decide TWO things...tanto blade vs normal blade, and Ka-Bar vs Cold Steel.

 

[fishface5]

My preference would be the Leatherneck SF. Stabbing penetration benefits from a point that is centered and sharp, and the SF has the most centered point. Also the SF has a more ovalled handle, which helps with indexing. The steel is slightly thicker, and D2 is good steel. SF over tanto, b/c a tanto point is not so good for penetration - it has strength to prevent breakage when stabbing into hard objects like armor, but the geometry is relatively poor against softer targets, for which the best geometry is a dagger point.

I would however look into getting the top edge of the SF sharpened, removing the top guard, and getting a good kydex sheath for it that will work with your gear set-up.

You will probably never need it (hopefully), and if you do there are better knives for the purpose, but of your listed options that's my pick/reasoning.

 

[GrinderMcgee]

Please forward to 6:00 for a very brief description of the function of the secondary point as it relates to the snap cut.

[Youtube]TpiMUuhZS80[/youtube]

I like the Warcraft the most for the collection but the Recon Tanto better than the Leatherneck just because of weight. Recon is lighter.

 

[J W Bensinger]

When I differentiate between combat, fighting and dueling knives:
Dueling knives are set up by the maker or designer primarily for countering folk also armed with knives (which is pretty unlikely). Fighting knives are dedicated, non utility (of whatever style) knives for scuffling with humans armed with everything from nothing on up, and combat knives are (like I said earlier) 90+% utility/troop knives that you could fight with if need be. Maybe I'm a little ocd in breaking it up like that but it helps me.
The kabar was designed as a combat knife by my definition-utility and weapon-so it's not perfect for either. I prefer a shorter (5-6") knife for either purpose-faster to access as an antipersonnel scraper, and easier to do utility stuff with as well.
I'd go for the regular point-snap/tip cuts work better with a short blade than with a sword-but if a guy's trying to put an AK butt through your ribs a snap cut isn't going to disrupt all that momentum.
I like the D2 mostly because of the single guard-they're not on your list, but at least look at the new Kabar/Ek series, just a thought. Welcome to the forum, btw.

 

[fishface5]

yeah I think of a snap cut as more of a dueling manouver than one used in a panicked CQB stab-and-slash interaction

 

[deltablade]

Maybe take a look at Ontario's SP6 with an 8" blade and a better point geometry, shown on the bottom. . While more expensive, the SOG recon, the top knife, is a great knife, wonderful balance, thick blade, good point geometry, sharp. and the AlleyKatz offers the dagger point. These three are shown here.



I think the Muela Scorpion, upper knife below, is an excellent knife, with a very good point geometry. I don't like the serrations, yet they can be ground off. It is shown here with the Ontario SP1, also an excellent knife imo