USN Mark 1 Utility Knife/ Navy deck knife- drawings/dimensions/blueprints

[pcprincipal]

Hi all,
I've had a good search on the net but to no avail for some blueprints with the original dimensions of the USN Mark 1. Just wondering if anybody has a photo of these/can send me in the right direction. There's part of a drawing on Pinterest but it's missing other parts.

This website has a drawing in one of their pictures: https://shipcanvas.com/products/us-navy-mark-1-deck-knife

It looks like drawing number 394532? 394832? I doubt that there's an archive for old USN drawings?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[tltt]

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That's a clearer photo Colonial put out, you might ask them, they can at least give you the number - https://www.colonialknifecorp.com/ . They used to use those blueprints for ads all the time.

Baring that, maybe ask Frank Trzaska, he might know a source for them - http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/ contact info bottom of page.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Ka-Bar might be another source for blueprints. I have their reproduction of the Mark 1, excellent knife, even better steel than the original.

 

[Choctaw Dan]

Understand that the USN Mark I knives were not made from a common pattern or design. About the only similarities were approximate blade length, and that they were single-edged.

When the war broke out, the US military was woefully short on knives. The Navy put out a call for any knives that met their rather broad specifications. Here's what they got:

From Colonial. [The bottom one is the modern-day reproduction]



Colonial's prototypes had clear handles that have long-since grown opaque. There are only about a dozen of them in the world. Here are three:



From Boker (on the left), and Geneva Forge:



From Robeson Shuredge:



From Camillus Cutlery:



From PAL Blade Company (the lefthand one is actually an older Remington and the second one is a private-purchase):



And finally those from Union Cutlery, under their Ka-Bar brand (the bottom one is a private-purchase):



They are kinda-sorta-similar, but by no means identical.

 

[eveled]

Ka-Bar might be another source for blueprints. I have their reproduction of the Mark 1, excellent knife, even better steel than the original.

It is different dimensionally than the original.

 

[Choctaw Dan]

It is different dimensionally than the original.

Agreed. Close, but no cigar...

 

[eveled]

Here is a new version an older civilian knife that is similar and a WW2 original. All KA-BAR.

I included the civilian version because it has the pommel I feel they should have used on the original USN version. My WW2 one will not fit into the hard sheath of the modern one. The blade is wider.

To the OP’s question. I don’t think the NAVY had a blueprint just a list of specs. I think I’ve seen the specs before but never a blueprint

Each manufacturer would have their own in house blueprints.

 

[Choctaw Dan]

Here is a new version an older civilian knife that is similar andca WW2 original. All KA-BAR.

I included the civilian version because it has the pommel I feel they should have used on the original USN version.

Do you know whether the civilian knife is pre-war or post-war? I ask because that pommel looks post-war.

 

[eveled]

It is definitely post war. Pretty sure the phont on KA-BAR is post war. I think it follows the original USN specifications closer than the ww2 KA-BAR version did.

But I find it interesting the spacers are very similar to the spacers on the old PAL USN MKI

C Choctaw Dan that is a wonderful collection of MKI USN Deck knives. Outstanding examples. Especially those opaque Colonials? Wow!

 

[Choctaw Dan]

Yup. PAL Blade purchased the Remington factory and designs, so there are a lot of carry-overs from the Remington Hunting (RH) knives to the subsequent PAL knives. That's why they were still designated as RH-(number). For example, PAL designated their Mark I as the RH-35, and their Six-inch Fighting Utility knife was the RH-36. Their entry into the Navy Mark II ("Ka-Bar") arena was the RH-37. In all cases the last number indicated the blade length, more or less.

Union Cutlery had a close relationship with the old Remington knife folks, hence the similarities. In my pics, compare the prewar Remington in the PAL pic with the private-purchase Ka-Bar. Not alike, but the "kinship" is there.

And thank you. That is the work of several decades.

 

[pcprincipal]

Thanks all for the replies- some very useful information. I guess I'll start with the suppliers and go to Frank Trzaska if they don't work out. I assume then that the Mark 1 drawings are proprietary company drawings? And the knives from then on, the M3, USMC Mk 2, etc. were military specified drawings?

I don't suppose anyone has any drawings of the M3 or USMC Mark 2 while I'm at it?

I have a Mk1 reproduction Kabar and an original Camillus M3 that my grandfather (Australian) traded with an American during the war. I was going to add pics of the M3 but it seems you need a weblink. The M3 feels much better in the hand than the Mk1. Obviously one is purely a fighting knife whereas the Mk 1 is a better "all rounder" (I really don't rate it for field dressing though and the cross-guard obviously inhibits its use as well but it is a hybrid fighting knife so that's what you get). This kind of brings me to another question- What has been the history of dedicated "fighting knives" in the US military? I had a brief look but couldn't see anything. The USMC Mk 2 is more of an all rounder than a dedicated fighting knife. Was it the M3 followed by the Gerber Mk 2? Maybe this should be a separate post?

 

[tltt]

I don't suppose anyone has any drawings of the M3 or USMC Mark 2 while I'm at it?

.

.

Current -

https://quicksearch.dla.mil/Transient/29943D62EDFD405AA2340E446E29961D.pdf - Sheath.

https://quicksearch.dla.mil/Transient/DE829B0BC9AF49918A28FFD61DB4A2B3.pdf - Knife.

I don't believe I've seen papers on the M-3.

 

[Choctaw Dan]

Here ya go:



No drawings, but there is a list of War Department documents that may prove helpful.

The other thing to consider is that the M4 bayonet for the M-1 carbine uses the same exact blade. In fact, that blade has been used on the M5 (Korean War M-1 Garand), M6 (M-14) and M7 (M-16). If you get in a bind, consider buying an inexpensive one of those and disassembling it.

 

[Choctaw Dan]

As for the Mark II "Ka-Bar" knife, it was originally a NAVY knife, intended to replace the less-than-satisfactory Mark I's. That's why they are designated "Mark II."

Camillus Cutlery made the first of them, using War Department drawings and specifications. Camillus discovered a flaw in the design -- when dropped just-so, the pommel broke off and rendered the knife useless. They made an interim correction and notified all the other manufacturers, who did likewise.

The USMC was also looking for a knife, liked the Mark II, and placed their own order with the same four manufacturers. The first shipment they received came from Ka-Bar, and the rest is history.

One can still find a few USN-marked Camillus Mark II's with the threaded nut holding the pommel to the tang, like this:


There are no USMC-marked Camillus Mark II's with the threaded pommel. In fact none can be found, with either marking, by any other makers. Instead, the first-generation pommels are peened and/or welded to the threaded section, like this first-generation Ka-Bar:



Later Mark II knives by all four manufacturers have the rectangular tangs, usually pinned to the pommels. That means the drawing, posted by T tltt , is for the second-generation.


Source: U.S. Military Knives Bayonets & Machetes Book III by M.H. Cole, and from my personal observations

 

[pcprincipal]

Again, thanks all for the replies and information. Sorry about the delay in replying, work has been crazy busy.

T tltt - Thank you for the original drawings! Is there any chance that you could PM or repost the current USMC drawings? The links don't work for me (getting a 404 error).

C Choctaw Dan - I might have to go down the path of reverse engineering one. It would be much better to have the military specs for it though. It must be a good blade design if it carried through for so long?

Sorry to ask for something else- I feel I have already asked for a lot already. Does anyone have drawings for an M4, M5, M6 or M7 bayonet? At least that way I can get the blade specifications. If not, I'll ask the Camillus company if they would be kind enough to send me something.

 

[Choctaw Dan]

C Choctaw Dan - I might have to go down the path of reverse engineering one. It would be much better to have the military specs for it though. It must be a good blade design if it carried through for so long?

It's a great blade for a true fighting knife, which includes the task of stabbing. Recall that this is exactly what the M3 knife was intended to be.

The earlier ones, at least, were made of carbon steel which makes them stiff and strong. (Not sure what the newer ones were made of.) They're very hard to sharpen but, once they are, they keep an edge forever. (Voice of experience here, with a WWII M4 bayonet which I still have.) However, were one to attempt to do things like prying open a crate or other non-combat applications, they were prone to snapping.

The current M-9 bayonet, and the USMC OKD-3S bayonet, are general-purpose implements that are also rigged for use as a bayonet.

 

[tltt]

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[tltt]

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[tltt]

You can right click the image to open in new tab, then you can further enlarge them by clicking again .

Edit - links to the big images -

Knife -
1 https://postimg.cc/nMh1z9Zn
2 https://postimg.cc/SJTQh5dy
3 https://postimg.cc/bd12qzSq
4 https://postimg.cc/CZNFxxpf
5 https://postimg.cc/CBG6gz3W
6 https://postimg.cc/QFDC8PKw

Sheath -

1 https://postimg.cc/V5c0ML7h
2 https://postimg.cc/cg1RRxhw
3 https://postimg.cc/4nMmQ6QB
4 https://postimg.cc/KKz15Jwp
5 https://postimg.cc/qN9784cq
6 https://postimg.cc/pm1F4wfM

For the M series bayonets, you're probably looking for -

MIL-B-1309
MIL-B-1309E

"Bayonet Knives"

That will give you the parts numbers files, etc..... for the M1917-M7 bayonets, from there, it's a pain.

 

[riversidedep]

Understand that the USN Mark I knives were not made from a common pattern or design. About the only similarities were approximate blade length, and that they were single-edged.

When the war broke out, the US military was woefully short on knives. The Navy put out a call for any knives that met their rather broad specifications. Here's what they got:

From Colonial. [The bottom one is the modern-day reproduction]

Colonial's prototypes had clear handles that have long-since grown opaque. There are only about a dozen of them in the world. Here are three:

From Boker (on the left), and Geneva Forge:

From Robeson Shuredge:

From Camillus Cutlery:

From PAL Blade Company (the lefthand one is actually an older Remington and the second one is a private-purchase):

And finally those from Union Cutlery, under their Ka-Bar brand (the bottom one is a private-purchase):

Awesome collection and great info! Considering this post and others I've seen from you showing your collection, I wish you would have joined Bladeforums 20 years ago!