Vacuum stabilizing question..

E

Eriksen

Joined
Sep 18, 2005
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175
Will it be possible to use an All America Canner as a vacuum chamber for stabilizing? And what kind of vacuum pump do I need in order to get enough vacuum for this purpose? Are there any inexpensive options on ebay?
 
People use all sorts of things as the stabilizing chamber … pressure cookers, paint sprayer 5 gallon pots, metal pails with tight lids, etc.

Check out Woodcraft for vacuum stabilizing packages. Ebay often has folks selling stabilizing packages, too. But, Caveat Emptor - if you don't know enough about it, you won't know if what you are getting is and good. I see people using brake bleeder pumps … which isn't really what you want.

There is no such thing as a "cheap" stabilizing. It is wasting money to try. Using "alternative" stabilizing agents, like Minwax, is not the same as professional stabilizing.
Cactus Juice is a product some home stabilizers use with OK results. It isn't the same as K&G, but it will work for home hobby use.
In my opinion, and the consensus of most knifemakers, it is far better to send the wood to a professional stabilizer like K&G and get it done right.

Some of the bigtime handle wood sellers have tries to do it themselves and spent $1000's of dollars, only to realize it is cheaper and better to have it done professionally.
 
To answer your question a bit more, The ONLY home stabilizing method that actually works is using Cactus Juice or a similar resin. You'll need a vacuum pump something along these lines: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N6IOBWF ($50 to $60 shipped) and a vacuum chamber, perhaps your canner might work, but you really NEED to be able to see the resin and wood to determine when the air is expelled from wood and ready for resin to start soaking in. Also, when you start the vacuum there will be foaming and you NEED to be able to see that foaming action to prevent the resin from getting pulled into the vacuum pump.

Results of this home stabilizing? All depends on the type of wood. An open pore wood like a spalted wood works great. You'll get full penetration of resin and the finished block will either sink in water or float just level with water. BUT - denser woods like Black Walnut and similar just don't work very good at all. Better left to K&G.

Cost? Well, not as cheap as we'd like to think. Not including cost of pump and chamber, just the resin costs a block is going to run in the $3 to $4 per 1"X2"X5" block of wood (provided the wood is free). I just finished some blocks of spalted maple for a buddy. He sent me 1/2 gal of Cactus Juice ($65 plus shipping) and 2 bottles of dye - total cost around $80 or so shipped. After finished 20 blocks I had less than an inch of resin left, not enough to do anything with. That's $4/block. Pretty darn close to what you'll spend with K&G from what I understand.

"IF" you can purchase resin by the 5 gal batch you might save a bit of money doing it yourself and have a good finished product - PROVIDED you choose an open pore wood for full penetration. From what I can tell dyed wood, the dye is the same color in the center of the block as on the outside which says it's full penetration. This is for an open pore wood.

By the time I paid for my vacuum pump, jurying rigging a vacuum chamber, buying resin, paying for learning curve I could have shipped all my wood to K&G and came out less expensive. BUT - I had fun learning.

Good luck and have fun.
 
OK!
I understand now that stabilizing of wood is not easy, but will the foaming problem also occur if I use this solution for other projects like adding colored epoxy to wood just in order to get rid of air bubbles in the epoxy?
 
Eriksen said:
OK!
I understand now that stabilizing of wood is not easy, but will the foaming problem also occur if I use this solution for other projects like adding colored epoxy to wood just in order to get rid of air bubbles in the epoxy?
Click to expand...

The stabilizing resin is different from the casting resin to make hybrids. Cactus Juice is a popular stabilizing resin. Alumilite is a popular casting resin. If you stabilize the wood and then want to cast it in colored resin to make hybrid blocks and scales, that typically requires a pressure pot/chamber so you don't get a lot of air bubbles in the colored resin. Usually the sequence is: dry your wood, stabilize the wood, cast the wood.

The reason the casting of hybrids requires pressure is because when you mix the two part resin, it's almost impossible to not get bubbles in it. If then solidifies, the bubbles will remain inside and be visible in clear and translucent resin and be voids on the surface when you sand into them. The pressure chamber basically puts everything under high pressure so there are no bubbles as the resin solidifies.
 
milkbaby said:
The stabilizing resin is different from the casting resin to make hybrids. Cactus Juice is a popular stabilizing resin. Alumilite is a popular casting resin. If you stabilize the wood and then want to cast it in colored resin to make hybrid blocks and scales, that typically requires a pressure pot/chamber so you don't get a lot of air bubbles in the colored resin. Usually the sequence is: dry your wood, stabilize the wood, cast the wood.

The reason the casting of hybrids requires pressure is because when you mix the two part resin, it's almost impossible to not get bubbles in it. If then solidifies, the bubbles will remain inside and be visible in clear and translucent resin and be voids on the surface when you sand into them. The pressure chamber basically puts everything under high pressure so there are no bubbles as the resin solidifies.
Click to expand...
Ok!
But how much pressure do I need in order to do this. Can this be done in a canner, or will the pressure be to high?
 
To remove bubbles, first draw a good vacuum, then after it bubbles up, apply pressure 100PSI is usually sufficient, but some professional setups use hundreds of PSI.

The same process goes for stabilizing wood. First draw out all air from the wood and boil off any internal moisture, then apply pressure to drive the resin completely through the wood. The reason the wood has to be below 10% moisture content is the wood can warp and split under the internal pressure of the moisture boiling out. I don't like to stabilize any wood higher than 7%MC.
 
Natlek said:
Coca Cola plastic from 2 liters , can hold 150 psi :D
Click to expand...

I don't know what that has to do with stabilizing ... but it is true.
You couldn't put wood in a 2 liter bottle very easily, and the resins might soften the plastic.
 
I m sorry guys , I just wanted to make point how much pressure can hold some thin material....:thumbsup:
 
But do you think that a canner which is produced for cooking with a pressure up to 15psi is safe for this purpose? I´ve seen videos of exploding pressure cookers on youtube and they did a lot of damage..
 
From what I have read, canners are fine for using as a vacuum chamber, but not as a pressure vessel.
 
That video shows exactly what I was talking about with the foaming. The level of foam is controlled by the amount of vacuum applied. In a canner which is normally metal you couldn't see the foam level so it would tend to rise up and perhaps get to the vacuum pump. That ruins a pump right quick. Using a clear vacuum hose with the pump mounted well above the resin you might could watch and as the foam got to the clear vacuum hose control the foam that way allowing use of metal canner for vacuum chamber.

Note the spalted wood block he put in the resin - that type is open pores allowing the vacuum to pull all the air from the pores of the wood. That type will easy get 100% penetration of the resin and do a good job.
 
I have a harbour freight pump and a painting pot I use with cactus juice that's works pretty well. As most have noted, open poor wood is fine but not oiley or dense wood. After 24 hrs a vacuum I leave another 24hr at 150psi.

My first attempt worked great. The wood sank in water with a soild thunk. Other attempts were not as good.

As noted, you have to watch the hose if you can't see the foam. You could have a second small chamber inline with the hose to collect any fluid.

Also, some wood will stain the catcus juice so its not like you can stabilize a whack of different colour woods without some colour transfer.
 
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