Venev Diamond Stone vs Resin Bonded CBN

Bluemantra

Bluemantra

Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
619
I have the double sided Venev stones and I’m looking to get single sided stones for more control. The double sided stones slip out when trying to apply pressure to the heel or tip area. I was looking at getting something different and the resin bonded CBN stones at gritomatic or practical sharpening is what I’m leaning towards. Can anyone with both provide a comparison for me. How do the edges differ in the lower grit and higher grit polishing stones?

I’m looking at starting with the resin bonded cbn 50/40 micron and 20/14 micron stones if anyone has specific experience with these stones.
 
Last edited:
One person here who has used both is wade7575 wade7575 , he has given comparative comments in a recent thread but for some reason I can't find it. And possibly @DeadboxHero.

ETA, here was some discussion about the CBN's and Venevs.

I'm interested in this question as well. The Venevs, for sure, are brilliantly designed and I'm really happy with mine, nobody would ever go wrong getting a set of Venevs. But on the question of comparison to the CBN stones, don't know. I'm also checking out the CBN metallic bonded stones at @Gritomatic. These have their pros/cons just like anything else, but are probably somewhat different from the resin-bonded ones. For sure, with the resin bonded Venevs, you'll need a flattening kit such as a piece of glass and some SiC powder in a lower grit than your stones. I'm gonna assume that resin-bonded CBN would be similar.
 
Last edited:
Also, look at the Diamond Matrix stone available at Gritomatic and edgepro.com Don’t need flattening and give great results. I have a few of them and love them.
 
A lot has to do with the bond. The firmer the bond, metal, the coarser the scratches from the same abrasive. The softer the bond the shallower the scratches from the same abrasive and generally the more even the scratch pattern because those proud crystals get removed quickly. Resin has a little give, the softer the resin the more the "give" it has. Because of this give they can be a little more gentle to your knives when sharpening. Kind of like how a leather strop is an even softer "bond" with more give.
 
Last edited:
maximus83 said:
One person here who has used both is wade7575 wade7575 , he has given comparative comments in a recent thread but for some reason I can't find it. And possibly @DeadboxHero.

ETA, here was some discussion about the CBN's and Venevs.

I'm interested in this question as well. The Venevs, for sure, are brilliantly designed and I'm really happy with mine, nobody would ever go wrong getting a set of Venevs. But on the question of comparison to the CBN stones, don't know. I'm also checking out the CBN metallic bonded stones at @Gritomatic. These have their pros/cons just like anything else, but are probably somewhat different from the resin-bonded ones. For sure, with the resin bonded Venevs, you'll need a flattening kit such as a piece of glass and some SiC powder in a lower grit than your stones. I'm gonna assume that resin-bonded CBN would be similar.
Click to expand...

The best metallic CBN stones to get are the 120 240 400 and 1K 2K,I personally would get the 120 400 and 1K stones for doing lower grit sharpening and then using the Venev stones you have to refine your edge or use a good quality Japanese water stone.The metallic CBN stones also stay flat and do need flattening just etching in ferric chloride to reveal more CBN.

I would also get the unmounted version of the CBN stones I have not tried them but the idea of using 3M 2 sided tape to mount them to the blank is a much better idea and an easier way to use the for etching the stones.

If you haven't tried the Gunny Juice diamond emulsion's I would pick some of that up with Jende nano cloth strops as well,some people think you have to match the micron size of the emulsion to the strop and that is not true they use the same cloth for all the strops the number on the strop is just there for size reference,if they are out of stock on certain size strop'sjust use a magic marker to write the size on them.

The reason I'm suggesting you try the Gunny Juice as well is because it cut's way faster then any other emulsion I have tired and if you get a 2K metallic CBN stone you get a pretty refined edge off of that stone as it is and you could use the Gunny Juice to further refine your edge,Gunny Juice is great to use even after the Venev stones as well,I wouldn't mess around with other strop material the Jende nano cloth seem to last the longest for me and also give better result's.
 
Thanks Wade I’m thinking of getting the resin bonded CBN in lower grit and then switch over to my Venev stones and finish on my OCB 1200 100%. The metallic bonded are just to cost prohibitive at the moment. What Venev stone do you jump to after a CBN 1k?

I do have Gunny Juice and love that stuff. I have 1nm and .5nm. I use it on leather, but after watching Gunny’s videos I do plan on trying it on nano cloth.
 
View attachment 1502237
Bluemantra said:
I have the double sided Venev stones and I’m looking to get single sided stones for more control. The double sided stones slip out when trying to apply pressure to the heel or tip area. I was looking at getting something different and the resin bonded CBN stones at gritomatic or practical sharpening is what I’m leaning towards. Can anyone with both provide a comparison for me. How do the edges differ in the lower grit and higher grit polishing stones?

I’m looking at starting with the resin bonded cbn 50/40 micron and 20/14 micron stones if anyone has specific experience with these stones.
Click to expand...

I'm not having a problem with Venev stones slipping on my homemade jig.
 
I see on the practical sharpening site that some of the higher micron rated CBN resin bonded stones are listed as 200%. Can someone tell me the difference between the regular CBN and 200% CBN stone?
 
Diemaker said:
A lot has to do with the bond. The firmer the bond, metal, the coarser the scratches from the same abrasive. The softer the bond the shallower the scratches from the same abrasive and generally the more even scratch pattern because those proud crystals get removed quickly. Resin has a little give, the softer the resin the more the "give" it has. Because of this give they can be a little more gentle to your knives when sharpening. Kind of like how a leather strop is an even softer "bond" with more give.
Click to expand...

One thing I would add to this is that weakly bonded abrasive on a resin seems to become basically a strop. I observed this after wasting some money on a DMD 12k.
 
ToddS said:
One thing I would add to this is that weakly bonded abrasive on a resin seems to become basically a strop. I observed this after wasting some money on a DMD 12k.
Click to expand...
As hard as it is to glue to the high energy surfaces of diamonds cheap and diamond anything is a crapshoot. And cheap probably means your getting pretty low quality, cheap, diamonds.

Were the diamonds only on the resin and not in it? Could you not dress it and bring it back to new?
 
The diamonds are mixed through, they're just not really bonded in a way that they present a grinding face to the steel, or at least the resin doesn't have the structure for this. I didn't waste much time with it, once I found that they weren't cutting the carbides in S110V. I suppose I was hoping it would act like a refreshable lapping film, rather than just a block of plastic with diamond sprayed on it.

dmd12k_02.jpg
 
Interesting how the resin fractures and looks like the diamond crystals. I wonder how much diamond is in there? Was it a hard resin? Any idea what type?

If you ever want to try some premium resin bond diamond stones let me know. Although your access to an SEM kinda scares me. I know they work well but I don't know how they would "look" under that much magnification, although my curiosity is killing me.
 
Good point about CBN metallic, I've seen anecdotal reports that you can sharpen a LOT of blades (like in the hundreds of sharpening sessions) before needing to etch.
wade7575 said:
The best metallic CBN stones to get are the 120 240 400 and 1K 2K,I personally would get the 120 400 and 1K stones for doing lower grit sharpening and then using the Venev stones you have to refine your edge or use a good quality Japanese water stone.The metallic CBN stones also stay flat and do need flattening just etching in ferric chloride to reveal more CBN.

I would also get the unmounted version of the CBN stones I have not tried them but the idea of using 3M 2 sided tape to mount them to the blank is a much better idea and an easier way to use the for etching the stones.
Click to expand...

I wonder if it would make sense to do something like get the metallic bonded CBN for your lower grits (say, up to 400), and then get resin-bonded CBN (or Venev, or Diamond Matrix) for the higher grits. Keep the metallic bonded for the heavy duty grinding and metal removal, and the resin-bonded for refining and finishing.

I haven't been a big fan of mixing media types when you don't have to, but in some cases like here, maybe it would get good results.
 
Last edited:
Bluemantra said:
Thanks Wade I’m thinking of getting the resin bonded CBN in lower grit and then switch over to my Venev stones and finish on my OCB 1200 100%. The metallic bonded are just to cost prohibitive at the moment. What Venev stone do you jump to after a CBN 1k?

I do have Gunny Juice and love that stuff. I have 1nm and .5nm. I use it on leather, but after watching Gunny’s videos I do plan on trying it on nano cloth.
Click to expand...

I would go with the 800 CBN after the Metallic CBN 1K,also if you don't do a lot of sharpening the Venev stones in the lower grits work really well and will last a very long also,just be sure to get aluminum oxide powder to flatten them with.

When you flatten them use the coarsest powder then move to a powder that's halfway between the stones grit then finish using a powder the same grit or 1 grit lower.
 
maximus83 said:
Good point, I've seen anecdotal reports that you can sharpen a LOT of blades (like in the hundreds of sharpening sessions) before needing to etch. But when you do, it goes better


I wonder if it would make sense to do something like get the metallic bonded CBN for your lower grits (say, up to 400), and then get resin-bonded CBN (or Venev, or Diamond Matrix) for the higher grits. Keep the metallic bonded for the heavy duty grinding and metal removal, and the resin-bonded for refining and finishing.

I haven't been a big fan of mixing media types when you don't have to, but in some cases like here, maybe it would get good results.
Click to expand...

What your suggesting would be fine and mixing media sometimes gives better result's as well for many different reason's,for example the Suehiro G8 8K stone is about the best 8K finishing stone you can buy and I use it a lot as well to after many different types media including CBN and diamond.

If your going to get the Metallic stones try a 2K as well and also the Gunny Juice,the 2K Metallic CBN refines the edge much better then one would think and if you take a gently with some finishing pass's with that stone the edge won't have many burr's at all if any.

Making a jump from a 400 CBN to 2K is fine and you'll find that when touching up that edge you can often go right 2K and then just strop plus using the 120 400 2k combo is an extremely fast way to get a good working edge,you can also follow up with a Chosera stone as as well if you want a more refined edge.


When choosing an emulsion after sharpening it's best to use an emulsion that's 1 or 2 micron size's smaller then what the micron particle size's are made up of on the last stone you used,the idea is to get the diamonds in the emulsion between the grooves the stone made the same way you floss your teeth for better edge refinement,I choose to strop that way if I'm not going for a perfect mirror polished edge and just a working edge.
 
Last edited:
{Deleted}

Never mind, moot point as I decided to go a different direction.
 
Last edited:
Diemaker said:
Interesting how the resin fractures and looks like the diamond crystals. I wonder how much diamond is in there? Was it a hard resin? Any idea what type?

If you ever want to try some premium resin bond diamond stones let me know. Although your access to an SEM kinda scares me. I know they work well but I don't know how they would "look" under that much magnification, although my curiosity is killing me.
Click to expand...

That's not resin, those are the abrasives. I couldn't find any diamond.
 
How does this progression sound for CBN resin bonded stone?...50/40(300JIS), 20/14(700JIS), 7/5(2200JIS), 3/2(5000JIS)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top