VG-1 steel?

[ryosuke]

Anybody know about the VG-1 steel? I know that many makers use VG-10steel but never heard of a VG-1 steel.

 

[Hair]

Cold Steel uses it.

 

[Quiet Storm]

Do a search and you'll find a few threads on VG-1, such as this one.

 

[Knife Outlet]

Lot of guessing in that thread. My guess is that VG-1 doesn't exist except in the vocabulary of Cold Steel. Something like Carbon V steel doesn't exist. Some of the Japanese kitchen cutlery makers use VG-2 as a soft exterior for steel sandwiches that have VG-10 in the core. So I know there is a VG-2.

Since CS is using this in a high end knife with a sandwiched steel blade, I'll guess that it is actually VG-10 and CS has given it another name for some unknown reason. Just a guess. I don't know any more about it than anyone else.

Maybe somebody has a list of all the members of the V Gold steel series.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

My guess is that VG-1 doesn't exist except in the vocabulary of Cold Steel.

There are many VG steels :

http://www.e-tokko.com/eng_original_list.htm

VG-1 doesn't have the cobalt of VG-10 and has a lower alloy carbide fraction, it would similar in class to AUS-10.

-Cliff

 

[Phil Brown]

CS renamed Carbon V to make it sound more "special," or perhaps to disguise the fact that it was made in violation of Sharon Steel's patent. I don't see how changing VG-10 to VG-1 makes it sound more special. Anyway, VG-1 is a real steel, and if they were using VG-10 (wouldn't that be hilarious) they would want to advertise it, not hide it.

 

[rifon2]

CS renamed Carbon V to make it sound more "special," or perhaps to disguise the fact that it was made in violation of Sharon Steel's patent.

I don't want to sound credulous here, but was Cold Steel really able to blatantly violate a legitimate patent simply by changing the name of something?

Anyway, VG-1 is a real steel

Like the original poster, I'm also wondering about VG-1. I've not been able to find much info on VG-1. It is a real steel, of course, as you say. Seems to be used in kitchen cutlery, mostly.

If it's comparable to ("similar in class" to )AUS-10, as Cliff Stamp posted, then it means that CS has upgraded the steel from AUS-8.

AUS-10 is excellent steel.

But if VG-1 is not comparable to AUS-10, then maybe CS has downgraded...and that wouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't want to sound credulous here, but was Cold Steel really able to blatantly violate a legitimate patent simply by changing the name of something?

There are many companies using that steel, Case and Camillus, for example, and there are many well known low alloy steels and tool steels of overlapping composition.

If it's comparable to ("similar in class" to )AUS-10, as Cliff Stamp posted, then it means that CS has upgraded the steel from AUS-8.

This is based on the alloy composition. You can find them in the above links.

-Cliff

 

[rifon2]

There are many companies using that steel, Case and Camillus, for example, and there are many well known low alloy steels and tool steels of overlapping composition.

So there was no patent? Or there was, and all these companies were violating it?

Seems to me that with many companies using that steel, as you say, that Carbon V wasn't in violation of a Sharon Steel patent.

(Thanks for the info.)

 

[Cliff Stamp]

There are a number of steels which have overlaying composition. You can see some details here :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/testsamples.htm

This was also discussed extensively on rec.knives when a few makers first became interested. This is not a new steel.

-Cliff

 

[rifon2]

Well, getting back to VG-1...

According to the manufacturer's (Takefu Special Steel Co., Ltd.) website,
it seems that VG-1 is their most basic high carbon stainless steel. They recommend it for

"hairdresser's scissors, kitchen knives, blade for food-processing machineries."
see http://www.e-tokko.com/eng_vg1.htm

Then they make VG-2, VG-3, etc all the way up to VG-10 (which is what Spyderco uses in a lot of its knives).
see http://www.e-tokko.com/eng_original_list.htm

So who's Cold Steel kidding about VG-1?
(Or am I missing something?)

 

[Bladescanada]

Cold Steel seems to only be using the VG-1 as a combination with their higher end San Mai III steel blades. I don't know of any of their knives that are advertised as strictly VG-1 all by itself. I know that most of their blades were upgraded this year, such as the Ti-Lite, Recon 1 and the Outdoorsman.

 

[rifon2]

They're now making the Large, Medium, & Extra Large Vaquero of VG-1 (strictly all by itself) according to their website.

see http://www.coldsteel.com/folding-knives-vaquero.html

 

[Bladescanada]

I didn't realize that! It seems by their pricing that there isn't much difference between the VG-1 and the AUS8 steel, as the price goes up in the 4 sizes pretty much in order, regardless of one steel or another. That's not to say that the two are the same, just that CS has them priced as such.
I also don't see the reason behind the change as I know first hand what the original AUS8 Vaquero can do when put to the test. I guess I am creating more questions than answering them!

 

[The Mastiff]

Is The super G-1 or G-2 the steel used in the Fallkniven U2 folder lamination center core? Sorry to change direction but it makes sense as they also use VG10 in their line. Joe L.

 

[rifon2]

I didn't realize that! It seems by their pricing that there isn't much difference between the VG-1 and the AUS8 steel, as the price goes up in the 4 sizes pretty much in order, regardless of one steel or another. That's not to say that the two are the same, just that CS has them priced as such.
I also don't see the reason behind the change as I know first hand what the original AUS8 Vaquero can do when put to the test. I guess I am creating more questions than answering them!

I'd been thinking of getting a Vaquero because I'd heard really good things about it - in AUS 8. Now I've got to ask the sellers if they have the VG-1 version or the AUS 8 version before buying.

(And you mentioned BTW that they use it as a laminate steel for a superior core steel in some of their knives. That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for it either, used alone.)

 

[rifon2]

Is The super G-1 or G-2 the steel used in the Fallkniven U2 folder lamination center core? Sorry to change direction but it makes sense as they also use VG10 in their line. Joe L.

I don't know. It does make sense, though, as you say.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Is The super G-1 or G-2 the steel used in the Fallkniven U2 folder lamination center core?

I asked the manufacturer about this awhile ago because it is a P/M and they do call it "super gold", I have not heard back from them. It does seem reasonable though as it fits the hardness and Fallkniven does use other steels they make.

So who's Cold Steel kidding about VG-1?

In general pretty much every cutlery steel brings worthwhile properties to knife use, which one is optimal depends exactly on the conditions of use and they are very sensitive to the exact requirements. For example :

"I am looking for a steel to slice a lot of cardboard in my shop and keep the force needed on the cuts to a minimum."

"I am looking for a steel to slice a lot of cardboard in my shop and to keep the tearing at the edges to be a minimum."

These are very similar tasks but optimal steels are very different because of the fact that steels blunt in a highly nonlinear manner. The answers will also change if slice goes to push cut and again if you have to consider really humid enviroment and further still if you have to consider preventing damage from staples.

Cold Steel could readily define a set of tests in which VG-1 would be the superior steel, the same can be done of any steel. This is why in general you disregard any such claims as they are meaningles hype. Look for very specific statements such as Wilson, Busse, Glesser, etc., will make as they will tell you exactly what they do to choose the steels they use. Then you can decide if that work is representative of what you will be doing.

-Cliff

 

[rifon2]

In general pretty much every cutlery steel brings worthwhile properties to knife use, which one is optimal depends exactly on the conditions of use and they are very sensitive to the exact requirements. For example :

"I am looking for a steel to slice a lot of cardboard in my shop and keep the force needed on the cuts to a minimum."

"I am looking for a steel to slice a lot of cardboard in my shop and to keep the tearing at the edges to be a minimum."

These are very similar tasks but optimal steels are very different because of the fact that steels blunt in a highly nonlinear manner. The answers will also change if slice goes to push cut and again if you have to consider really humid enviroment and further still if you have to consider preventing damage from staples.

Cold Steel could readily define a set of tests in which VG-1 would be the superior steel, the same can be done of any steel. This is why in general you disregard any such claims as they are meaningles hype.

Yes Cliff, you've made these points before. While I think they are useful, I also think that people can ask questions like "Is this overall a better steel?" and receive a direct answer. There will always be some caveats.

If I'm a newbie and go to a knife dealer and ask if this knife in D2 or S30V or VG-10 is "better" than that one over there in VG-1 or 420J2, the dealer can say "yes". And they'd be speaking the truth, as far as I'm concerned.

Is a Ferrari a better car than a Yugo? Well, maybe not if you want to drive it around and smash it into things. But if you ask that question to someone knowledgable, you'd be reasonable to expect them to say "yes" without defining it and parsing it and nuancing it so that you somehow come out thinking the Yugo is better than the Ferrari. It just isn't.



So of course, the knife dealer can ask what you want to use the knife for. And if you say "whittling cinder blocks, immersing in water, dropping on concrete floors", etc. well then maybe the 420J2 is just as useful as the D2 or S30V for those (wierd) applications, but it's not intrinsically a better steel as "better steel" is reasonably understood by people in general.
Or even "as good" a steel. It just isn't.

(i.e. you can always find an exception to a general rule.)

So when looking for how good VG-1 is, you know as I do that I'm talking about what kind of edge it takes, how long the edge lasts, is the steel reasonably tough, are there any known flaws such as chipping for example,
and not much more than that.

From what I've seen, VG-1 is good steel for hairdressers scissors and food processor blades. And I don't see makers like Chris Reeve and Jerry Busse and Sal Glesser using it in their knives.

 

[Larrin]

If I'm a newbie and go to a knife dealer and ask if this knife in D2 or S30V or VG-10 is "better" than that one over there in VG-1 or 420J2, the dealer can say "yes". And they'd be speaking the truth, as far as I'm concerned.

So as long as the steel has greater wear resistance than another steel, then it's a better steel? I don't think so.

From what I've seen, VG-1 is good steel for hairdressers scissors and food processor blades. And I don't see makers like Chris Reeve and Jerry Busse and Sal Glesser using it in their knives.

Of those three people you listed, only Sal Glesser has access to VG-1 to use. The fact that somebody isn't using a steel in no way says anything about the steel either. Sal Glesser has no reason to use VG-1 because he already has good success with VG-10.