Recommendation? Want Safety Advice on Borax

Jesse WW

Jesse WW

Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
71
Hey all,

Today, for the very first time i had a go at making a piece of pattern welded steel (went pretty well). Anyway, when i was using borax(labeled boric?) as a flux (this stuff), i couldn't help but feel a little uneasy at the fumes it was giving off considering i have no idea what this stuff actually is and how toxic it might be. I was wondering what kind of effects it can have on health and if there are any important precautions i should have in mind when using it? Is handling it not recommended? Should i wear a respirator and have adequate ventilation? Is this stuff im using even the right stuff?

Thanks

Jesse
 
Don't worry Jesse, borax is sodium borate. That is a molecule of 2 sodium, 4 boron, and 7 oxygen atoms attached to 10 water molecules ... Na2B4O7-10H2O.... called sodium tetraborate decahydrate.

If you completely dry it out, it becomes anhydrous borax - Na2B4O7. It will not stay that way unless kept hot or closed away from atmospheric moisture. If refined a bit more it becomes boric acid - H3BO3. This is a safe and slightly acidic solution used in medicine and metallurgy.

When you coat the hot steel with the borax, the water molecules are driven off ( the "smoke") and it becomes anhydrous. At around 2200°F it melts. The active compound will attach itself to any free oxides on the steel surface as well as protect it from atmospheric oxygen because it is basically a thin layer of boron glass. What that means is as the steel reaches welding temp the borax both cleans the steel as well as protects it. When you do the actual weld, the very hot and fluid borax gets ejected along with the oxides and other trapped trash, causing clean bare steel to be welded to clean bare steel.

There is no danger to borax. While toxic to insects ( roach powder is boric acid/borax) it is harmless to humans and does not cause skin irritation or other health risk. Boric acid is used to wash out your eyes if you get something bad in them. Laundry is washed in borax in many places. As I said earlier, the smoke is just water vapor.

The only real danger to borax is the hot jets of molten borax shooting out between the layers when hammering the billet to set the welds. It will stick to things and can burn you. It could potentially start a fire if you had papers or leaves piled around you. The borax slag will also make rust spots on iron and steel things it sticks to in the forge area , as it will rehydrate and place water molecules touching the metal. Not a really big problem, but one to know about.
 
Last edited:
Stacy, i was hoping you would respond as i do recall reading at some stage somewhere that you have a history in chemistry - knowing what this stuff is and that its safe puts my worrying greatly at ease. I did a little previous research on it but couldn't find a lot about the "fumes" it was putting of, which is what i was primarily concerned about. I very much appreciate your response. :thumbsup:

Jesse
 
You are welcome. Yes, I was a research chemist at age 18. The youngest any of the other chemists knew. I was largely self taught. When taking High School chemistry, I was tutoring students from ODC ( it wasn't ODU yet) and nursing school students in chemistry, math, and science.


A lot of folks panic when they read a box or online info that says something is toxic. You could take a bath in a tub of borax water and have nothing to worry about. Borax is toxic in the same way that salt is toxic. If you ingested a large quantity of either one it could kill you. Most likely it would give you a stomach ache, the runs, and vomiting. Just for the record, drinking very large quantities of water can also be fatal.
All fine dust should be avoided, and respirators worn in grinding/sanding, but borax has particles too large for inhalation concern (except the fine dust in manufacturing it).

Alcohol is very toxic, but we seem to have tamed our fear of it. However, rapid consumption can lead to alcohol poisoning and death. Beer chugging contests kill a few youth every year. Guzzling down a bottle of vodka can easily kill you. Two or three shots of Everclear (200 proof grain alcohol) can put you in a coma you may not wake from.



Other commonly WRONG cautions on deadly things are:
MOP - the dust is calcium carbonate ...similar to baking soda ... and has no cyanide
Zinc fumes from burning/welding galvanized pipe and such - while no fumes are good to breathe, the zinc oxide fumes are not deadly, and zinc is not particularly toxic to humans. Good welding/brazing practices and proper ventilation is always part of good welding.
Peach and Apricot pits - While technically containing a poisonous alkaloid, you would have to eat several pounds of the nuts to get any serious dose. The funny thing is that almonds are the same family, and the nut is harmless, but the fruit is inedible.
Wood dust from exotic woods - Many exotic woods are reactors, in which you may get a rash or blisters from the resins in it if you are sensitive, but the dust is not usually directly toxic.

And since it is Christmastime ... poinsettia leaves/flowers. You have read and were told from childhood that these will kill any child or animal that eats even one leaf. Even doctors in the ER may believe it. This is totally untrue and came from a unproven wife's tale that most houseplants are deadly poisonous. In actuality, you could make a salad from poinsettia leaves and the worst it would give you is a bad case of the runs. A med school recently figured the amount of poinsettia leaves that would cause health risk was about two bushels eaten at one sitting.
 
Last edited:
Stacey you have blown me away. Very good information and very interesting history on your life. I'm grateful you are willing to share from your storehouse of knowledge.
 
Stacey, I am surprised about the zinc fumes. I've read stories about ill effects of blacksmiths cooking off the galvanized finish on pipes in their forges. Just a few days ago I read something that said the zinc fumes combine with moisture in your lungs to create some form of acid. Though I'm not finding that now with a quick google search.

Jesse, One side effect of borax is that it will eat the crap out of your forge lining if it's just Koawool and Satanite. I learned this the hard way and my forge now sports a bed of kitty litter topped with a hard firebrick floor.
 
Zinc fume fever is massively overplayed, its like a hangover.
I know the story you're talking of, came about on "anvilfire" probably 10-15 years ago. Total BS. The guy died of unrelated pneumonia a month or more after fully recovering from the zinc fumes, and they should never been put together into a story. All the online hysteria about galvanizing can be traced back to that. People who have actually worked with it and had zinc fume fever have a very different opinion.
 
Thank you Geoff. I have this argument at least monthly. Zinc fumes are nothing to be nonchalant about, but not deadly.
 
Borax/boric acid is used in swimming pools and is quite safe, unless you are eating the stuff. There are warnings about pets that use the pool as a main water source and it can have, shall we say, a shrinking effect on a male dogs testicles if the dog drinks enough. That takes drinking gallons of pool water with 50 PPM of borates per day over a prolonged period of time.
 
golfer1 said:
Stacey you have blown me away. Very good information and very interesting history on your life. I'm grateful you are willing to share from your storehouse of knowledge.
Click to expand...

My uncle, a chemist, used to call chemistry “that branch of physics which is too difficult for other physicists.” Apropos of nothing I wish we in the US had a constitutional amendment requiring a PhD (or equivalent) in Chemistry as a prerequisite for election to the Senate. Sure would clear things up a bit!(eg, hysteria-based legislation)
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
You are welcome. Yes, I was a research chemist at age 18. The youngest any of the other chemists knew. I was largely self taught. When taking High School chemistry, I was tutoring students from ODC ( it wasn't ODU yet) and nursing school students in chemistry, math, and science.


A lot of folks panic when they read a box or online info that says something is toxic. You could take a bath in a tub of borax water and have nothing to worry about. Borax is toxic in the same way that salt is toxic. If you ingested a large quantity of either one it could kill you. Most likely it would give you a stomach ache, the runs, and vomiting. Just for the record, drinking very large quantities of water can also be fatal.
All fine dust should be avoided, and respirators worn in grinding/sanding, but borax has particles too large for inhalation concern (except the fine dust in manufacturing it).

Alcohol is very toxic, but we seem to have tamed our fear of it. However, rapid consumption can lead to alcohol poisoning and death. Beer chugging contests kill a few youth every year. Guzzling down a bottle of vodka can easily kill you. Two or three shots of Everclear (200 proof grain alcohol) can put you in a coma you may not wake from.



Other commonly WRONG cautions on deadly things are:
MOP - the dust is calcium carbonate ...similar to baking soda ... and has no cyanide
Zinc fumes from burning/welding galvanized pipe and such - while no fumes are good to breathe, the zinc oxide fumes are not deadly, and zinc is not particularly toxic to humans. Good welding/brazing practices and proper ventilation is always part of good welding.
Peach and Apricot pits - While technically containing a poisonous alkaloid, you would have to eat several pounds of the nuts to get any serious dose. The funny thing is that almonds are the same family, and the nut is harmless, but the fruit is inedible.
Wood dust from exotic woods - Many exotic woods are reactors, in which you may get a rash or blisters from the resins in it if you are sensitive, but the dust is not usually directly toxic.

And since it is Christmastime ... poinsettia leaves/flowers. You have read and were told from childhood that these will kill any child or animal that eats even one leaf. Even doctors in the ER may believe it. This is totally untrue and came from a unproven wife's tale that most houseplants are deadly poisonous. In actuality, you could make a salad from poinsettia leaves and the worst it would give you is a bad case of the runs. A med school recently figured the amount of poinsettia leaves that would cause health risk was about two bushels eaten at one sitting.
Click to expand...

Stacy, have you considered running for public office? Please don’t be angry at the suggestion, but IMHO, though you are over-qualified, you could phone it in and do better than most!
 
Stacy; I wish there was a requirement for just good common sense to be elected to our government. We have far too much government and most of it seems to revolve around STUPID.
Yonose said:
I wish we in the US had a constitutional amendment requiring a PhD (or equivalent) in Chemistry as a prerequisite for election to the Senate. Sure would clear things up a bit!(eg, hysteria-based legislation
Click to expand...
 
You could say my chemistry creds are more recent but less extensive than Stacy's, but he is one hundred percent right.

Boron is generally a super safe compound. Its actually replacing more and more reactions every year in labs because as my boss told me "Its really hard to kill yourself with boron." Thats not to say molten flux wont give you burns or do serious damage to your eye, but you would have to REALLY work to to do any real bodily damage with standard boron. I mean eating a bowl full of it. The toxicity is roughly on par with table salt.

And Zinc fumes, Oh zinc fumes. I never understood why people thought it would be so toxic. Perhaps a bit too much chemistry, but zinc is a very reactive metal in its pure form. And a general rule of chemistry is that the more reactive something is, the more stable is product is. Think about Sodium or Chlorine. Both will ignite on contact with air or water, but the product of the two of them is incredibly stable. Same with Zinc and oxygen. When you get zinc screaming hot "forge hot" It will start to oxidize, forming ZnO. Zinc Oxide is what they use for that old timey white sunscreen life guards were. It is almost competently chemically inert. Granted, they are still forming in a microscopically fine powder in the air that will do damage to your lungs, but it is the same as fine sawdust or coal dust or any other fine particulate. Dont breath it, but you arent going to die if you put something with zinc in the forge.

And the bit of yellow stuff formed is an ultra small amount of ZnO2 or zinc peroxide which will quickly degrade in air, heat or on contact with steel.

The thing to remember is that the main dangers in your shop are the ones you feel comfortable with. Accidents happen when you feel comfortable and let down your guard. Buffing a blade, operating a power hammer or press, not putting on your saftey glasses to finish a weld cause "It will only take a second"

The long term effects all boil down to small bits of stuff getting in your lungs. And so as i say to everyone who enters my shop or has a shop of their own, WEAR YOUR DAMN MASK!
 
You aren't the first to suggest I run for office. I will tell you what I say to those folks:

I would sooner shoot myself than run for office. Both are self destructive, but the bullet is far less painful.

I have known or met a lot of elected officials, and I feel that every one of them was severely affected by the experience. Some in health, some in sanity, and all aged a lot faster. I think it was Samuel Clemens who said, "People say you have to be pretty smart to run for president. I say you have to be pretty dumb to run for president."

I firmly believe in the system of government that Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, and the others formed, but the current one we have would make all of them sick.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
You aren't the first to suggest I run for office. I will tell you what I say to those folks:

I would sooner shoot myself than run for office. Both are self destructive, but the bullet is far less painful.

I have known or met a lot of elected officials, and I feel that every one of them was severely affected by the experience. Some in health, some in sanity, and all aged a lot faster. I think it was Samuel Clemens who said, "People say you have to be pretty smart to run for president. I say you have to be pretty dumb to run for president."

I firmly believe in the system of government that Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, and the others formed, but the current one we have would make all of them sick.
Click to expand...

Ok, write-in only! It would take more than one brilliant,sensible official to bring reason back to the Capitol. They may age faster, but the lifetime healthcare benefits keep them alive longer than the rest of us! Thanks for at least “considering.” On to Greenberg Woods...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top