Water, badlands or desert

Some of the water in the arid regions can be high in alkali which makes the water undrinkable. There may be a white crust around the edge of the water that shows the high mineral content that makes it undrinkable.

DaveUSAF
 
fnc said:
Here is a quote that seems overly broad to me.
"Be mindful that on this entire route, there is no potable water. Further, no amount of filtering or boiling will make the Badlands water drinkable."

http://www.outdoorplaces.com/Destination/USNP/SDBadlan/blnp3.htm

So are there large areas of Badlands or Desert, where all water is bad?
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If you are in a position to boil the water & condense the steam, then you will have drinkable water :D




Kind regards
Mick
 
SouthernCross said:
If you are in a position to boil the water & condense the steam, then you will have drinkable water :D




Kind regards
Mick
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Unless you happen to be in an area where heavy metals and other water soluable chemicals, often due to mining, are present. In which case, a still will do you no good, since some of these have boiling points that are lower than the water they are suspended in. Unfortunately, water sources like this are most commonly found in "badlands" and desert areas.

As a desert dweller, I'll say this; The only thing more important in an arid region than proper clothing and protection from the environment, is knowing where your next drink of water is coming from. Either carry your own potable water, or know the water sources intimately, otherwise it's just not worth the risk.

Just an example, here in the Mojave desert where mining is prevalent there are pristine and clear pools with no signs of alkalinity and even greenery at some, that are laced with insanely high amounts of arsenic and other chemicals that have leached out of the mines.


Gautier
 
I've always wondered about chemical contamination. Are there test strips or anything that can help determine this? What about pdb's, mercury, etc. Is it a matter of knowing the source and path of streams before using them? What about run-off from farm fields (manure, pesticides, fertilizer, etc)?

Thanks
 
There are tests to determine the levels of contamination in water, but a lot of them are element specific, because of that and other reasons testing for all possible contaminants is impractical and in some cases virtually impossible for your average joe to get a hold of testing materials/chemicals.

As such, yeah, I'd say the best thing to do is just "drink upstream of the herd" and keep an eye out for what could "potentially" find its way into your water, then make an educated decision on the possible risks.

If you live in a high risk area, such as near a nuclear power plant, high use agricultural area, etc. then you might be a little more leary of the water. Most states offer groundwater reports for little or no cost if you're really concerned or just want to get paranoid about the minutiae of trace elements that may be in the water you're drinking :p

All that said, I'm not a hydrologist, nor do I play one on TV. I just happen to have read a lot about water contamination, purification, filtering, etc., being a desert dweller it seemed prudent. I encourage others to do the same though. A wealth of information can be found on the net about potable water.

For such a big part of not only our outdoor experience, but life in general water seems to be on of those things that's taken for granted by a lot of people.


Gautier
 
After looking at some more web-sites, I guess the article was pretty accurate:
plan well, bring water.

Interesting read and good pictures by hiker-type (survival-type?) tourists:
http://scenicdakotas.com/sd-badlands-camping.shtml

DaveUSAF mentioned white crust on rocks and soil.
This picture shows some clear water, but rocks in stream bed are covered in white.
http://scenicdakotas.com/southdakota/badlands/wilderness/badlands-creek.jpg

Again from the same article, this shows green country, where you would expect
to find some normal water, but you would be wrong:
http://scenicdakotas.com/southdakota/badlands/wilderness/campground-distance.jpg

Here is another article that mentions silt in the water that can clog your water filter.
http://wikitravel.org/en/Badlands_National_Park

Tourist articles, or books, cover other nearby areas that are totally different so do
not get confused: Custer battlefield, Black Hills, Mt Rushmore, etc.

I did find a filter for Arsenic and other metals, but it weighed 155 pounds.
Small enough for an archaeological dig, but not small enough for most short term tourists.
 
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You would be hard pressed to find chemical contamination in a desert environment that would distill with the water vapor. Distillation would remove all heavy metals and salts. Steam distillation would carry some organics, but those would be pretty low in deserts unless you are near an oil seep.
 
G'day Gautier

Gautier said:
Unless you happen to be in an area where heavy metals and other water soluable chemicals, often due to mining, are present. In which case, a still will do you no good, since some of these have boiling points that are lower than the water they are suspended in. Unfortunately, water sources like this are most commonly found in "badlands" and desert areas. .....Gautier
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Care to name a single heavy metal that has a boiling pont lower than the boiling point of water (let's for the moment assume that you are at sea level, so 100 degrees C is a good starting point).

Care to name the other "soluble chemicals that are often used in minning" that have a boiling pt less than 100 C.

Since you have done so much research, this enquiring mind wants to know. :thumbup:




Kind regards
Mick :D
 
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Well, sodium nitrate, for one is used in explosives for mining and is often in itself found naturally in arid regions(in a white, crusty formation, as DaveUSAF alluded to), long chain alkyl alcohol is also used as frother for segregating minerals, chlorine(such as that in Chloride, Arizona, an old mining town), ammonium sulphate and ammonuium hydroxide are also compounds used in mining, ANFO(ammonium nitrate and fuel oil) is a common explosive to mining, naturally occuring benzene and toluene(common in arid areas), just to name a few.

If you'll notice, my post says heavy metals AND other water soluable chemicals(often attributed to mining), not one or the other. Yes, distilliation will take care of 99% of heavy metals, BUT where there is one, at least in mining areas, there is usually the other. You can treat for one or the other but rarely both.

I was simply addressing all the issues of contamination when it comes to potable water in the U.S. regarding "badlands"(South Dakota and such, a big mining area) and arid regions. Also, a lot of this is dependent on distance from the collector, elevation, boil times, etc. Again, I'm not a hydrologist and if you really want to know more about the subject, look it up.

Then again, it's your water and your body, do whatever you want. No sweat off my sack, alkali or otherwise.


Gautier
 
Gautier said:
If you live in a high risk area, such as near a nuclear power plant, high use agricultural area, etc. then you might be a little more leary of the water. Most states offer groundwater reports for little or no cost if you're really concerned or just want to get paranoid about the minutiae of trace elements that may be in the water you're drinking :p
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Being close to a nuclear power plant shouldn't have a chemical impact on the water - they use the water from rivers only for cooling (which heats up the river a little bit and changes their biota) and they don't/shouldn't/won't put any of the water which was heated up by the reactor back into the river.

It's different if there was some kind of nuclear incident - then there would be some fission products around and it would get messy.
 
G'day Gautier

I sincerly hope you don't think I'm having a go at you. Rather in the interest of accurate information on this forum, the chemist in me feels the need to respond :thumbup:

Gautier said:
Well, sodium nitrate, for one is used in explosives for mining and is often in itself found naturally in arid regions(in a white, crusty formation, as DaveUSAF alluded to), long chain alkyl alcohol is also used as frother for segregating minerals, chlorine(such as that in Chloride, Arizona, an old mining town), ammonium sulphate and ammonuium hydroxide are also compounds used in mining, ANFO(ammonium nitrate and fuel oil) is a common explosive to mining, naturally occuring benzene and toluene(common in arid areas), just to name a few.
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First up Sodium nitrate, NaNO3 (as a salt), has a Boiling pt of 210 dedrees C (110 degrees C bove the BP of water). Not at all likey to boil at the same temp as water and therefore appear in any significant quantaties in the condensed steam.

Secondly, care to identify the "long chained akyl alcohols used as frothers for segregating minerals". I'm sure that you already realise that a short chained alkanol like propanol (with only 3 carbons, that can hardly be descibed as "a long chain alkanol") boils at 97.1 degrees C .

How about the 4 carbon alkanol Butanol, the boils at 117 deg C?

What about a 5 Carbon alkanol like pentanol, with a BP of 138 deg C that is increasingly less likely to make up a significant portion of the condensed steam.

I'm sure you see the trend here. The longer the Carbon chain in the Alkanol, the higher the boiling point.

Without further specific information about the actual "long chained Alkanol" your referring to, I really can't comment any further.

Thirdly, Ammonium Sulfate (NH4SO4).
This stuff doesn't even boil because it decompose at a temp 100 deg C above the boiling point of water. Again not likely to be a significant contaminent of the condensed steam.

Ammonium Hydroxide (NH4OH). Since this has such a low BP for the levels you are talking about (I assume less than 10%), it will have already boiled off before anyone would want to distill the water where it once was.


With regards to both Benzene & Toluene, you are correct here in reckoning that both have a similar BP to water, But I've got to honestly ask how likely they are to be found in any serious concentrations in the water in the areas we are talking about.?

IMO, if both are in high levels in these areas, then your local, state & federal governements need a real "Kick up the Ar$e from here to kingdom come" for allowing this :mad:

I won't speak for anyone else, but I will continue to distill water in situations where I think there will be chemical contaminents. :thumbup:

But then again, I live in a country where water in remote country is still free from chemical contaminents & microbial parasites :eek:

Obviously OMMV :thumbup::thumbup:




Kind regards
Mick
 
SouthernCross said:
G'day Gautier

I won't speak for anyone else, but I will continue to distill water in situations where I think there will be chemical contaminents. :thumbup:

But then again, I live in a country where water in remote country is still free from chemical contaminents & microbial parasites :eek:

Obviously OMMV :thumbup::thumbup:
Kind regards
Mick
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Moonshine whiskey distilleries were a very big thing in the eastern part of the USA,
up till the 1980's (I would roughly estimate). Federal laws are very strict on the
possession of distillery equipment with confiscation of vehicles, land etc. largely without
"due process" in the courts, though some will dispute my characterization.

With the Energy situation, of the last 40 years, it may be that they (Feds and States)
have some new laws and procedures of permits to accommodate the little guy.

If anyone has explored this recently, in any detail, please post.
More info on laws or equipment would be welcome.
 
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A couple years ago I did some backpacking in the Badlands. We each carried about 30lbs of water to last a few days. It worked out well for us because any water we did find was full of tremendous amounts of silt or contaminated by the numerous bison defecating in and around the water.

There's no way in hell I'd drink from any of the water we found.

Here's a pic to illustrate what a larger water source looked like:

IMG_1316.jpg
 
PB Wilson said:
A couple years ago I did some backpacking in the Badlands. We each carried about 30lbs of water to last a few days. It worked out well for us because any water we did find was full of tremendous amounts of silt or contaminated by the numerous bison defecating in and around the water.

There's no way in hell I'd drink from any of the water we found.
Click to expand...

It must have been quite an experience for you, carrying all that water.
I guess you never learned to appreciate water with some "body".:D

I am getting quite an education about the Badlands of South Dakota. In the old days (1900),
ranchers could have had wind mill pumps, water tanks etc, but that would not guarantee
good water, if the well were shallow.

I forgot to post previously:
SOME horses (and presumably other animals) could drink from a BL water source,
but that same water is almost certainly "bad water" for humans.
 
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The best part about carrying all that H2O was that my pack got considerably lighter over the course of the trip. It was the only way to get into the more remote areas without caching water beforehand. The water in the park smells strongly of sulfur, even out of the tap, but a bit of gatorade powder helped and gave us some electrolytes in the process.

It's an amazing park with such stellar formations. Nothing is off limits because the bison trod upon the land with impunity. Just give them wide berth and I mean WIDE berth and you'll be fine. We spooked one pretty good at about 200 years off and it scared us quite a bit.

The water I had just consumed was almost lost running down my leg when that big critter stood up and took notice of us!:eek:
 
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