Water or Oil quenching

K

Kingdom

Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
72
I hear a lot that oil is much better than water for quenching. But I also hear it does not yield as dramatic a curve (to a Japanese style blade) than water.

My questions are: will water work for quenching? And if so are katanas more prone to breaking than tantos? I want to have some nice curves to my knifes but I also don't want them to break.

I'm not at liberty to buy oil yet unless I use a cheap cooking oil. But I don't know what kind of oil to get.

Some feedback or other tips would help.

Thanks!
 
Using brine might give you a more even quench than water with a little less risk of breaking, as the salt disrupts the vapor jacket that tends to form and create uneven stresses.

I want to have some nice curves to my knifes but I also don't want them to break.
Click to expand...

Just keep in mind that there are a lot of very experienced sword smiths who have been doing this for a very long time, and they still have the occasional break. I'll let some of the more experienced smiths in the way of the sword comment further on what may be better for what purpose.

--nathan
 
I heard that brine can corrode the blade if you're not careful.

And I suppose nobody wants their blades to break. :P

If I use brine what is the recipe so to speak of salt to water?
 
Why not just forge the curve in and then quench in oil, it will have the same result.

Yes Katana are far more prone to breaking than tanto, by increasing the blade lenght by 5 times you also increase the area for the blade to crack by 5 times. Which is why even the best Japanese sword smiths loose about 1 in 3 blades. Also it will depend on the steel your using.

The only thing quenched in my shop with water is mild steel.
 
silver_pilate said:
Using brine might give you a more even quench than water with a little less risk of breaking, as the salt disrupts the vapor jacket that tends to form and create uneven stresses.



Just keep in mind that there are a lot of very experienced sword smiths who have been doing this for a very long time, and they still have the occasional break. I'll let some of the more experienced smiths in the way of the sword comment further on what may be better for what purpose.

--nathan
Click to expand...

I'm no expert on this, I quench in fast oil, but I thought brine was faster than plain water. Doesn't the salt solution help to eliminate the vapor jacket which speeds up the quench even more. I've done several clay coated W-1 baldes in brine and every one of them cracked on the spine. Thats when I went to the oil and haven't had any problems since.
 
My understanding is that the quench is faster, but more even. It's not so much the speed that causes breakage as that the speed keeps the steel from evening out its internal temperature differences and the temperature differences are what actually does a blade in. If the vapor jacket is uniformly inhibited, the blade will cool much quicker but there will be a lot less temperature gradient.
 
Mike Quesenberry said:
I'm no expert on this, I quench in fast oil, but I thought brine was faster than plain water. Doesn't the salt solution help to eliminate the vapor jacket which speeds up the quench even more. I've done several clay coated W-1 baldes in brine and every one of them cracked on the spine. Thats when I went to the oil and haven't had any problems since.
Click to expand...

yes :)
 
Last edited:
I'm going to try and get my hands on some Parks #50, I hear that's good. Otherwise I will just use a brine solution.

As for the metal I will be using I'm going to buy a little w2 from my friend and any other metal will most likely be bars of scrap metal. Anything I can get my hands on really.

I am planing on doing mainly non folded tantos and other little knifes. I am a total beginner so I don't want to bite off more than I can chew.

Also a question about the quenching container. Is a troth better than a upright tube? I want to make a upright tube I can sink the piece down into so that if I'm using oil then the only fire that will catch will be on the small top and also its easier to just dip the knife down into.

Thanks for the info. :)
 
Trough are good for doing edge quenching. The verticle tubes are good for full quenches.

Depends on what you are going for on the quench.
 
I plan on just putting the mud stuff (cant remember the name) on the blade thin layer over all and thick layer on the back. That's a full blade quench I think.
 
Kingdom said:
I plan on just putting the mud stuff (cant remember the name) on the blade thin layer over all and thick layer on the back. That's a full blade quench I think.
Click to expand...

There's quite a few more threads about this...you might want to read them before you get disgusted..just trying to help. I don't have the search function or I'd link the threads
 
If you haven't seen it, Wally Haye's "Modern Katana" offers an excellent sequence on the clay coating and heat treating of a sword with a water quench. You can rent it at that link for a reasonable amount.
 
As far as quenching oils go, Mcmaster-Carr has fast & slow oils for sale. Fast/11 sec. for 10xx steels and slow/28 sec. for O1, 5160 etc.. I got a 5 gallon pail for $75.00 delivered. Thats basically the same price as an equal amount of canola/cooking oil and it is a REAL QUENCHING OIL.
 
Just being a voice of reason and concern here.

I noticed that you have "Heard" a lot, but seem to have read very little. I suggest an extended reading period before getting too deep into knifemaking. I don't know who your friend in Hampton is ( Big John?), but I am surprised he hasn't told you the same. I know that at 16 waiting and studying before doing something that is exciting seems impossible, but it is well advised in this field.

A google on "Knife making tutorials" will keep you busy for weeks.

After you have an understanding of the process, posting questions here is a good idea.

I can also tell you that starting with Japanese blades and water quenches is not the easiest way to get into knife making. That said, Wally Hayes' videos are superb.

Stacy
 
+1 for Stacy's advice
+1 for real quenching oil

Starting out trying to do a Katana is a bit unrealistic
try a simple 4-5 inch blade to get started, work up to larger.
read all of the "Newbies Good Info Here" stickies

You will get a lot of advice here. A lot of it will be from people who talk a lot and occaisionally make knives, Some of it will be from people who've been making knives for 20-30 years or longer. There's a lot of hype and myth out here, then there's good solid metallurgy. When you get advice read up on it and see if it makes sense.

have fun, be safe

-Page
 
Mike Quesenberry said:
I'm no expert on this, I quench in fast oil, but I thought brine was faster than plain water. Doesn't the salt solution help to eliminate the vapor jacket which speeds up the quench even more. I've done several clay coated W-1 baldes in brine and every one of them cracked on the spine. Thats when I went to the oil and haven't had any problems since.
Click to expand...

3/4 lb of salt per gallon of water (or 5 to 10%) allows uniform quenching by allowing the water to "wet" the surface uniformly, so it seems to be faster. It isn't. More salt will slow down the quench. As has been said, plain water forms steam or gas pockets which slows down the quench in some places and causes uneven hardening and takes longer to cool the steel in the pockets.
 
bladsmth said:
Just being a voice of reason and concern here.

I noticed that you have "Heard" a lot, but seem to have read very little. I suggest an extended reading period before getting too deep into knifemaking. I don't know who your friend in Hampton is ( Big John?), but I am surprised he hasn't told you the same. I know that at 16 waiting and studying before doing something that is exciting seems impossible, but it is well advised in this field.

A google on "Knife making tutorials" will keep you busy for weeks.

After you have an understanding of the process, posting questions here is a good idea.

I can also tell you that starting with Japanese blades and water quenches is not the easiest way to get into knife making. That said, Wally Hayes' videos are superb.

Stacy
Click to expand...

I'm sorry for my poor choice of words. When I say hear I mean I have heard or have read. I have spent the past two weeks or so reading up on blade smithing. But thank you for the input.

As for my friend he is Chris Moss. I go to Church with him.

As for starting out with a smaller blade I have stated before that I do not plan on doing anything of the sort (i.e Damascus, or katanas) rather I only plan on making little knifes. I know my limitations and I don't plan on biting off more than I can chew. Again thank you for the information. I know everybody here is trying to keep me (a 16 year old total novice) from making mistakes and loosing interest.

Thanks for the info everybody, and thank you Mr. Johnson for the brine recipe. Is there any specific kind of salt I should use?
 
Kingdom,

Congrats on having Chris Moss as a friend. He can teach you a good bit about the world of knives. He is a very gifted young maker, and his work is well respected by most here.

--nathan
 
Kingdom said:
Thanks for the info everybody, and thank you Mr. Johnson for the brine recipe. Is there any specific kind of salt I should use?
Click to expand...

Just regular house hold salt NON iodized. be careful nnot to over heat the blades and you should have too many problems.
 
Chris is a great guy. He is also a rare talent. He started with Japanese blades, and has done well ( I prize the one he made for me). I helped him in some of his early projects, but mostly he just needed materials, tools, and info. He has a natural ability to do bladesmithing.

However, few....make that very few....make that almost no..... new makers will have anywhere the success to start with that Chris had.

I will check with Chris, and if he vouches for you, my library is at your use. Also, since you have someone who I respect as your mentor, if you need help in learning, or materials, I will see what I can do to provide them for you. A visit to my humble shop could also be arranged after the holidays. I have all of Walter Sorrell's' DVD's on making katana and doing hamons, etc.. There are many more books and DVD's I will loan you as you progress.

Take care, hope to hear more from you.
Stacy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top